spot on. I had thought about this as well. my bench test will not yield true results because I have the turbos out of the equation.I think I'm leaning toward mimicking a users setup they are currently using and running it. I know a guy that lives near me on a different forum. I am going to check out his and see if it is what he says it is. he has been running it for years no issues. that's the results I wanted to hear about.

 

Sorry for the language. Looks like I need to go read the rules again.

 

Off topic but another point that motorcycle site fails to mention is coming out of the burnout box. It's under boost and you grab the clutch and cut the throttle and there is nothing to keep the pressure up.

Take a few pictures of it and ask him about using a fixed orifice rather than the turbos for testing and if he uses a heater for the oil or is using a zero weight oil in the jig. I would also be interested in knowing what oil he is using for the closed loop setup.

I can't recommend them but Comp Turbo does offer an oilless system and they will do custom work. Quality and delivery times have been a problem.

Many years ago I had to make a trip to the GM New Departure Hyatt plant. They were showing me a new turbo they were working on with an outside company. This turbo used VGT and was the first time I had seen it. The other real interesting thing was it was self contained. It had a small oil reservoir, maybe 1x1x2", that supplied the oil for the life of the turbo. They had it mounted in a Quad 4. I asked about the oil they used and was told it had been custom made for this application. They showed a cutaway version and there were solid looking white colored wicks that fed the oil to the bearings. Gravity only. Maybe this technology is out there now. Then again, maybe I have it all mixed up.

 

1) Sleeve Bearing Turbos need more oil than ball bearing Turbos (but cost a lot less).

2) Low mount Turbos (Porsche 911 and Porsche Cayenne have a pair of good sized collection boxes that each Turbo can drain into before the oil is sucked out and sent to the engine because When you shut off the engine (or in your case power to the scavenge pump(s)) the oil is still at 30 psi + oil pressure and quite a bit of oil volume will still be before the turbo and still need to pass thru the turbo, out the drain hose into a collection box (now with no scavenging of the oil back to the oil reservoir. If you did not have the large volume collection box, the trapped oil would be trapped in the turbo for a period of time and now leak past the piston ring seal on the turbine side (because the turbo shaft is not spinning any longer). So your exhaust system gets a big drink of oil past the seal without a place for the oil to go. Killing Mosquitoes time!

Maybe every couple of days or so I will post another tip on why you can't do the stuff without thinking about all of the parts of the system.

Tom Vaught

 

That must have been a while ago because I'm pretty sure these have been on the market for well over a decade
http://aerocharger.com/aerochargers/

 

When you use Ball Bearings on the Turbo Shaft you can get away with a fine mist on the shaft/bearings with little to no real wear on the parts.
More money but aerocharger made the stuff pretty durable. Just all small frame stuff I believe.

Tom Vaught

 

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Thanks for posting the link. I thought they had said they were working with a company in Texas to develop it. I am guessing this would have been 86-87 time frame. I am not sure if the Quad 4 had been released yet. They were working on a split camshaft at that time to allow the lobe centers to be tuned on the fly. That looks to be the same setup but much more refined than what I saw.

"1) Sleeve Bearing Turbos need more oil than ball bearing Turbos (but cost a lot less)."

Half inch ID hose will flow more than 1/8 inch hose. Just in case there was a question by members.

All joking aside Tom, I have two turbos I am using. One is a Garrett T3/T4 with a journal bearing while the other is a ball bearing unit made by Comp Turbo. The CT was a custom one off and the compressor wheel was machined for it. The cost difference between the two turbos was under $500. Then again, you need to look at the whole picture, quality, time, etc.

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Next time i'll keep my mouth shut and wait for your next thread, Gee why didn't my Diaphragm Agricultural pumps hold up to hot oil. Seems like the experts would have caught that , being so simple.

 

Like I said, buying a ball-bearing turbo only gets you part way there in many cases. The ball bearing is also the thrust control and the turbo still uses one sleeve bearing. A dual ball bearing turbo could survive with a mist oiling system in a self-contained mode. Course the turbo might need to be water-cooled too depending on the application.

Tom Vaught

I say let the man build his system, drive it for a period of time and report out his results (as he already has the system designed in his mind).

 

I have it in my mind and really ready to go. I just ordered 2 turbowerx pumps (gear driven) and will have to play around with pressure. I will have to play around some on the bench to get the pumps where I will have a constant pressure but will focus more on the fact that bearings aren't lubricated via pressure. They also need the right volume of oil, correct viscosity, temp. I have taken the time to try and do this right and dont intend on shortcuts at this point so plenty of tie will be spent getting this right.

 

Well keep us posted ,i for one would like to see how it turns out. Some pic's would also be nice.

 

Could probably hook up a cheap turbo timer to finish draining the sumps after shutdown as well.

 

Any Updates?

Tom V.

 

1. Tom Vaught has probably forgot more about turbos then we'll ever know so Id say his resume is pretty good.

2. Nothing in this world will beat the reliability of gravity. It never shuts off, gets a thermal event and dies, blows fuses or gets weak over time. And any event that all of a sudden cause gravity to fall even 1%, your turbo draining will be the least of your worries. lol plus its free.

3. Everyone is talking about .120 lines and pressure..... Me myself would really be interested in the volume of oil at 200 plus degrees at 30 psi that pump can put out. 30 psi on a guage dead ended off a pump dont really give a idea of flow... now if you have 30 psi in the feed line while its hooked to the turbo and the oil is at operating temp have at it but i got a feeling your pump will be short lived.


4. Comp turbo sells oil less ball bearing turbos that seem to be holding up great, so why even bother with oil at all. The added price of all this stuff would easily pay for the more expensive oil less turbos.

 

Will have to look into the "No Oil" CHRA stuff from Comp Turbos. Personally have been trying to get the "Big Boys" to offer either a "Air Bearing" Turbo or a "Minimal Oil" design turbo for several years.

No one wants to step up. The Comp Turbos guys would have to prove 300 hour FIE durability on a dyno which would be an expensive deal for them. Portions of the test are 6 hrs of testing (at a time) at max RPM, max Boost, and max Load. 6 hours is a LONG time, not quarter mile stuff. There are lots of those "MAX EVERYTHING" specific portions of the test in 300 hours naturally.

Tom Vaught

 

So who does go through that? Borg Warner I assume, since their turbos are huge, heavy, and built like tanks compared to most. Garrett in OEM diesel and marine apps too maybe?

 

Currently Garrett and Borg Warner are the only big players in the turbo game and both are actively pushing the envelope (but not with oil-less turbos to any degree to my knowledge).

Tom Vaught

 

Would heat really be as much of an issue with a separate reservoir? I know the oil will pick up heat from the cartridge, but taking preheated engine oil out of the equation has to help a ton. I'd push the oil through the cooler so the sump pump wouldn't have to draw oil through the cooler.

A turbo timer on the sump pump set for a minute or so should take care of the oil in the exhaust issues.

Does sound like a ton of extra variables when you could just use engine oil pressure, gravity drain to a sump, then pump back to the pan.

 

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Jury is still out on oilless stuff.