I think there's a difference between manufactured in China vs copied in China. Some parts coming from China are decent quality when controlled, and they're supplying a part vs copying. All the big names have China parts, as they do Canadian or others. That said I'll pay a little more for a name brand part vs a copy.

 

This is what I tried to say but you said it better!
How bout the politicians stop letting come to our shores? That's how it has to start.

 

What are you basing that from? do you know what your "US company" pays for a turbo? How can you base it's worth if you don't know? I agree there needs to be cushion for R&D and don't expect to get something at cost. We aren't getting them at cost from China companies either. They still make a profit.

The facts are today companies like VSracing are getting damn competitive with "name brand" units and still manage to sell a great performing product for a reasonable price with great support. They are also constantly designing new wheels and turbo versions. If they can design something competitive at half the price, what is the incentive to go with something like a Garrett or Borg? Which are also made in China? Its like choosing Tommy Hill'finger over Hanes. Same shirt, twice the cost.

Where are you getting your "American made" Turbos and turbo products anyway? I'm not really aware of any companies that use parts made 100% in the US? COMP Turbo maybe?

I hope it changes too... But I also hope companies that are too big for their britches see what Guys like VS are doing and open their eyes.

A precision CEA 78/75 is $1790 (+$600 for BB!)
VS newly designed 78/75 is $750.

Back to back less than a 50 hp difference at like boost... with precision on top.

Both china turbos...Unless I'm a class racer where every HP counts... Why am I going to run Precision/Garrett? To keep the big business owner happy? For the shit customer service? (anyone ever tried precisions customer service? Its a joke!)

Or am I going to support the small business owner based in the US with great customer service?

 

I don't have a comprehensive list, but I think Comp, Xonarotor, Bullseye are all made here. I think PTE still makes some here as well.

 

I agree,FF86,it isn't black/white, but TRYING to spend your $$ earned here,vs sending it the China is. Sure it's impossible to not buy some foreign made goods,but you can try. And how about your fellow Americans that work here for the American businesses? I don't mind spending more/spreading it around if it keeps/helps the economy here.

American corporate greed exists for sure,but IF people refused to buy products made by our enemies from the start, maybe we wouldn't be where we are right now.

 

Just playing the devils advocate here all, i defiantly understand your point, and I'd love to keep it all local.

I guess I prefer small business with great customer service to the "Walmarts". Esp when the products the big boys sell are mostly made in china anyway.

Most of those "Custom companies" Start with a new base cartridge S400 or Garrett (both china) and put their (or wheels they may have designed and had made off shore) in place. IDK, its hard to tell and companies are tight lipped about it. even if they do design and make their own wheel in house... I don't see where the 75-200% markup comes from. I've swapped a billet 75mm 11 blade wheel onto an S475 and it literally took me 10 minutes. They state they come pre-balanced as well so no need to balance after assembly. That turbo is still going today and performs quite well. ($148 wheel). Yet we see MIC turbo and a few diesel big name companies selling these Billet 11 blade S475s for $1200+. All seems like a gimmick to me!

The guy I worked with closely ran a small shop and sold turbos on ebay under the name "Apex Turbo". He would rebuild genuine S400 based units and install China Billet Wheels. He gave me his cost for the wheels and supplier info long ago. He believes teh big US Turbo companies simply supply a wheel they CNC'd to China to replicate. Then the company can legally stat it is their wheel was in house designed and made. They leave out the "mass produced in china" part. Not claiming any of those companies do that, just throwing out what was said. In 2018 when I bought my S480 his cost on that billet wheel was $225 shipped. At the time it had the same specs on the inducer and exducer as the FI S480 and "looked" identical.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong. CEOs and top brass get paid 10s of millions of dollars, they lay off american workers and send designs to be made cheaply in china. China rips off the designs and sells them for less and I should be mad at the commies and not the CEOs?

 

To me it's a matter of ethics.

I don't appreciate the way the average worker in china is treated, yes their cost of living is lower, but so is their standard of living. You should visit there some time, it will make you appreciate your home much more.

I don't appreciate "cloning" goods, no matter how good the clone comes out. There has been a huge amount of R&D put into these products that are being knocked off. A company invests dollars, resources, and man hours in the science, mold and casting development (your talking millions of dollars just in this step), production development and iteration to get something into production. Then someone else comes along and copies the finished manufacturing program, or reverse engineers the project. They have effectively invested zero and can now sell it at a cheap rate, and they can do it since they are not subject to patent laws. Yes this is in part the fault of the companies shipping their goods out for production; but you can't ask to buy a part cheaply and have it made somewhere with ethical employment and EPA practices. Something has to give.

Right now China is willing to strip their land, suffer the environmental problems, sell out there future generations cheaply, and every super power in the world is willing to exploit that. It is the governments responsibility to protect the people, and protect trade, the Chinese government is not doing that. This is the part of china I wish to fuck, right square in the ass, with a telephone pole.

When your talking about design theft your talking about a real thing. It's easy to think of something physical being stolen, because its a piece of property that someone has built and it has physical presence. A design or production model is the exact same thing, it took man hours, experience, education and hard work to produce. Dismissing that theft because its convenient doesn't make it right. Supporting the theft by buying a clone product is the same as buying stolen goods out of the back of a truck. It says something about who you are.

 

In my opinion it can all be summed up in two characteristics of people lack of integrity, and excessive greed.

I like buying local and supporting small businesses. I could not care less about large corps. Unfortunately, they have written the rules in their favor.

 

First off, China does have Patent laws. That is total false information. Slave labor! No patent laws! Child Sweat camps! It's all BS! None of that is true! Yet ask 10 American citizens about it... and many believe one if not all of those claims. Why do you think that is?

Companies copying product designs has been around since the dawn of time. That will never go away. If you don't think American companies do the same, your mistaken. There is literally no way to stop a person from buying your product and reverse engineering it, changing it slightly... and mass producing it. This is true in the US and every where else in the world. If someone has truly stolen your copyrighted design and you can prove it, you can take them to court just like you can here.

A tiny tip of the economical iceberg is affected by the consumer. What destroys the economy is the CEO's Paying China and themselves insane amounts of money, while minimally paying the workers and providing garbage benefits. The same D-bags paying themselves 6 million a year, then turn around and expect government bail outs? After destroying all the small business owners of course.

Boils down to the US governments/big business. It's their fault for allowing China products to not be taxed as they should. They make/control the majority of the money, not the consumer. Then the money is with the few wealthy and not spread out more equally among the people (small business) as it should be.

Then big business spreads all the BS propaganda stating we the consumers are the ones causing the problem by "not buying American". When the money we spend or save going directly to "china products" is a drop in the bucket and would change VERY little. The bastards are just upset we aren't buying their marked up China products!

 

The Chinese are not subject to U.S. patent law. It is U.S. law. Suing a Chinese company for patent infringement is just throwing money into the ocean. They can duplicate anything they want to as long as it doesn't originate in their country, even items that are part of the PCT are blatantly ripped off. And it its almost impossible to get enforcement through the PCT even if your product has been accepted. Even if you do get enforcement, or can get a cease and desist letter through the company will just "shut down" and reopen under a different name at a different address. There are multiple steps to pursuing patent infringement, so when I say they are not subject to patent law, I mean exactly that. I am fully aware china has its own patent system

I don't think you understand the way patent law works, nor what it takes to exceed a patent on an already existing product. You don't get to put a dimple in a casting and call it a new product.

There is nothing immoral or unethical about getting paid well. CEO's are the top of the food chain, they work hard to get where they are, generally have a lot of education, and are constantly head hunted and bid for. Many are incredibly special people capable of handling immense pressure, long hours and self sacrifice. Most don't set their own salaries, if your talking about a major company that is determined by a board or committee, they are usually made an offer and accept or don't. Stop acting like a job position makes someone a criminal.

It's the companies fault that their design and IP is getting stolen? Come on man. That's like saying its someone's fault their car was stolen because their locks weren't good enough.

 

These are the same CEOs that make millions while their employee's receive government assistance. As a tax payer I have a problem with that. Pay your workers a living wage. I think business tax rate should be increased by a factor for the percentage of their employees that are on the tax payers dime. Pay your employees or pay the government .

 

US Patent laws do not apply. Just like China's patent laws do not apply to the US. China is still subject to patent laws. And you can still take them to court and win, it happens all the time. If a company is paying their CEO millions a year, and they aren't smart enough to have representatives/lawyers in all countries filing their patents... then having said product "stolen" is negligence.

There's nothing stopping anyone from reverse engineering china's products or anyone else's for that matter. Manufacturing is cheaper there due to inflation not being *as* out of control as it is here. Factor in the cost of living, then add things like medical and insurance. Now a person making minimum wage in China is technically making more than a U.S. citizen. Their money will go farther anyway... Also we have no idea what the person making these turbos are making per hour.

There is absolutely nothing stopping you from starting a turbo company and hiring minimum wage employees. Then buying another companies product, reverse engineering that product, and selling it. Hopefully you improve the design or manufacturing cost in the process. It's called competition. Its why we get better and better products for less and less $. You act as if China is the only one doing this. It's been done by every big business out there since the beginning of time. We've already established there's no child labor or ridiculous minimum wage when compared to the US. In fact, once you figure in the cost of living as well as things like medical and insurance. The average minimum wage worker's salary goes farther in China than it does here.

It is literally criminal IMO to pay yourself millions, then not pay a living wage to your employees... buy them garbage insurance etc. If the economy wasn't so screwed up by big business, we wouldn't be losing the manufacturing battle with China. If the US can't produce and design a better product for a better price... then we lose that business. Seems pretty simple. If the government wasn't controlled by money hungry offshore companies, it would tax the hell out of those china goods/services. Then businesses would stop outsourcing and the money would stay here and circulate among the masses, instead of being horded by the few. But the few control the laws and they are the ones reaping the highest benefits from off shore manufacturing/goods.

Everything in the US inflated beyond belief. National Debt is 27 trillion dollars, its insane! We can't blame that on China or anyone else. There's no reason for our cost of living to be 4x higher. There's no reason for our insurance and medical bills to be over 57 times higher. The average cost for a night in the hospital in China is equivalent to $35 U.S. dollars. It's $2000 here! Why does an insulin unit in the US average $111 and average $8 every where else in the world? All this ridiculous inflation is why the cost of living is through the roof! Its why china can manufacture goods cheaper than we can. It has little to do with them stealing our patents.(which does happen of course... it happens here as well) IMO... Its the massive companies, pharmacies, banks etc ruining the economy.

I don't want to get political or offend anyone, so I'll stop. Just saying there's 2 sides to every coin. I don't condone theft of "intellectual property". But I don't think there's any reason we can't be competitive with China. It would take less greedy big business owners and higher import taxes. If I could get my "parts" American made for another 10-20% I'd do it.

 

+1

Its starting to happen, I bought a set of Danner boots a couple years ago, there were two "identical" boots on the shelf, one had a little American flag embroidered on the tongue of the boot and was $20 more, made in the US. On a $200 set of boots it was an easy decision.

This is going to sound crass but people should be paid what they are worth. A warehouse worker in a company doesn't generate a whole lot of revenue, it takes little skill and no education, very little stress and self sacrifice. A manager that makes them all flow together generates a little more, a product designer or engineer can generate quite a bit and up and up it goes. But if a person is generating in billions in revenue they should probably get paid for it, or they are going somewhere else. Were also in a country where professional athletes get paid millions a year, because they are special and have talents.... I don't necessarily agree with this but you sure don't here people complaining, in fact its usually cast in a positive light, like its a big deal. That's because athletes are celebrities, something society says kids should emulate. If more kids emulated successful businessmen maybe this country would pull itself up by the boot straps and kick the shit out of this third world production problem.

In the US system wages are a form of status. A persons boss usually makes more than that person. Take that up tier after tier, branch by branch in a mega corporation and pretty soon the wages get high.

I am not trying to justify low wages here, I live below the poverty level myself. Cost of living is high, medical is a joke and people get bent over at every turn. That isn't the way things ought to be.

 

So My initial problem was not cured. Yes going bigger on the hot side helped bring the back pressure down at least 10 to 15lbs. But it looks like some people called what might be wrong right from the start.
I think valve float is my problem. It took me about 3-4 months to get new housings and another 2 months to install them. Had to redo a lot of the exhaust and then get it ceramic coated. All this and still can rev over 5500.
I have a custom cam and used the recommended spring pressure but somethings not right. It seems that 220lbs on seat and 596lbs spring rate aren't enough. I don't know if its the boost and pressure messing with it or heavy valve train but something isn't happy.

And I'm not even sure that's it. Trying to contact the cam manufacture to see what they think.

My logs show a clean rpm line with no lost signal and 75% duty on injectors. I'm running dual in tank fuel pumps with -10 lines. Tried 3 different types of spark plugs gapped from .025 down to .015, 2 sets of coils, and 2 different types of plug wires. I have a set of smart coils also but am now leaning towards the valve train.

 

Cam manufacturer says the springs should be fine and there a slight over kill.
Is the back pressure still a problem. If so I thought my problem would move up some in rpm. Testing springs on head tonight to double check nothing is weird.

but I’m stumped

 

Maybe i missed it. What are the cam specs? duration .050, intake centerline, lobe sep

 

It looks like the springs are a little low. I can unseat them around 160 to 180. I know these gauges are not extremely accurate but I think it’s close enough for me to do more investigating.

Brendan

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Here’s cam info. Not a crazy cam but is a solid roller cam.

Brendan

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Did you check at full lift as well? If full lift is around 550#, springs look OK and you are nowhere near coil bind, you can just shim them. Only needs about 0.060" (1.5mm) of shim to pick up 40# - 45#.

Having said that, it seems like a lot of spring pressure for 5,500 rpm.