So here's my current set-up. This engine on its best day put down 685rwhp & 710tq at 17psi running a single 76mm T4 Rear-Mount Turbo system on 110-leaded VP Fuel:

• Teksid +.020
  
• Stroker Kellogg Forged Crank 3.750
  
• Scat H-beam Rods with ARP 2000 Bolts
  
• Probe Forged Pistons (not sure of the dish that netted 10.25:1)
• ​MMR mid-level Oil Pump

• Patriot Stage-2 Heads
• Comp Springs
• Stock Cams
• Stock Followers & Adjusters
• Full ARP Stud Kit
• JBA Mid-length's
• Port-matched Fox Lake P51 intake
• Dragon 75mm TB
• 65lb. Moton Injectors
• Stock COP's
• Aeromotive A1000 Pump
• SCT Tuner
• Running: 250amp Alternator, stock Water Pump, KRC Power Steering Pump

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My problem with this old combination was how bad it fell off and how limited the RPM's are. I need a larger/wider "performance window"...

I need to be up in the +800rwhp range with this freshened combination that I'm still sorting out. So far, this is what I'm thinking:

• Teksid +.025
• Stroker Kellogg Forged Crank 3.750
• Scat H-beam Rods with ARP 2000 Bolts
• DSS Forged Fly-cut for TS Pistons (not sure of the dish that I need to run 10.5:1) Also this might be a good time to add some ceramic coating to the domes...
• Melling CnC'd High Volume Oil Pump
• Trick Flow 185 Heads (not sure if they'll need porting?)
• Comp Springs
• Comp Cams (not sure of the specs I need?)
• Jesel Followers & Solid Adjusters
• TrickFlow adjustable Crank Gear or Cloyes Adjustable Cam Gears???
• Full ARP Stud Kit
• JBA Mid-length's
• Not sure what intake yet? Leaning toward a Logan but might go Eddy with a Wilson Elbow? For my usage, mid-range Torque is super important and I'm scared that the short-runner Eddy will kill me. So wish it had a bit more "rise" and plenum volume...
• Dragon 75mm TB (might need a larger one with TF Heads?)
• 80lb. Moton Injectors
• Stock COP's
• Aeromotive A1000 Pump
• SCT Tuner
• Running: 250amp Alternator, stock Water Pump, KRC Power Steering Pump

Since it always comes up, I run the rear-mount system to help with the car's weight distribution. It has no appreciable "lag" though like most turbo cars, it can ALWAYS spool faster. To help this, I'm thinking I might switch to smaller T3 twins but I'm concerned with them running out of steam on the "top-end". I haven't ruled-out adding a short 75-shot of Nitrous on the lower boost levels. Hope to not have to do this as it will be just 1-more thing to keep up with during our race weekends but the option is still "on the table"...

For the block, I've used this same +.020 Teksid unit for the past 3 seasons and while I wish I could afford an aluminum 5.4L Ford GT block for the extra cubic inches, I guess I'll stick with it should it check out ok when we pull it apart. I thought about trying to sleeve this or the WAP block I have but was talked out of the idea because I want to run so much boost. I steel block is out of the question for me simple because of the weight. My car already has 52.3% of its weight on the front axle so the absolute last thing I need to do is make it heavier. With the ARP head and main studs, I'll be adding side-main studs for added strength...

I'm kind of disappointed that I waited as long as I did for the Trick Flow R 195's to come out. I was led to believe that I really needed them to make the power I was looking for but since they've come out, people have learned that the larger valves really need a 3.700 bore to flow correctly. I only hope that the 185's will be that much better than the ported Patriot's??? I still haven't concluded if the 185's will need porting or not? I really want as much flow as I can get (without going to 4v's. I don't want the extra weight.) so I'm trying to find some info as to how much can be gained by porting them (real performance, not just flow bench numbers).

Cams are naturally a concern, seams like everyone I speak with suggests a spec that is different from anyone else. I'm getting the feeling that cam selection is more of a "black art" than science??? I know that going with the Jesel solid lash adjusters is going to allow mean a more aggressive profile but again, I'm no engine guru so I'm looking for guidance...

The Intake Manifold is also something I'm not sure on yet. I'm changing my cold-tube routing to come straight through the middle of the Firewall so rear-center is going to be needed. I like the runner length of the Logan but the plenum seems a bit shallow so I worry about even flow to all runners. I like what Wilson did with their Hump-back design that I just read about for the LS motors. They took a Holley cast LS manifold, cut the plenum off and added their own 2-piece deep sheet-metal plenum. Looked really nice to my untrained eye but I'm afraid $3500-$4500 is out of my budget for now. Another advantage I see to this type of manifold is that it keeps the water inlets separate from the runners. In my view, this will keep the temp of the manifold lower unlike the cast Eddy unit that has the water-jacket molded into the front runners. I've considered cutting the water-jacket away and then sorting-out some kind of water system similar to the 4valve heads but I've not spent enough time on that direction of thought...

The Eddy with its nonexistent rise, limits the runner length and the plenum is so small (even with a spacer under the elbow) that I'm thinking my low-mid range torque will be in the "dumper". Not sure what the point of that manifold is? Why go through all the costs of building a manifold for a motor, that everyone know's need runner length, if you're not going to put at least as much rise as your carburated units have??? I know that Wilson will port them and they say it will help but the costs of their work is "up there" and for how much real gain I don't really know? Can I achieve the same improvements with a simple "match-porting" job done by a local company? I wonder....????

Piston choice seems pretty straight forward. I know that I'll need them Fly-cut for the Trick Flow Heads and I've heard good reports about the DSS offerings. For the 18-23 lb. boost levels I plan on running, I'm thinking I should get upgraded Wrist Pins and maybe some heat-barrier coating applied to the top of them. Aside from that, I think the brand will just be a matter of price for the best quality.

The Rods are a little questionable I think? I would feel better if I could afford some billet versions but I'm really extending myself $$$ pretty far with this complete new-car build so I hoping the Scat's will survive??? And the Crank I think I'm pretty safe with as well.

The stock COP's are questionable. I hope with the higher boost levels, I won't blow the spark out but I really don't know if this is going to be an issue as I've never pushed an engine this far before.

I'm staying with the JBA's for now. Thought about maybe trying Long-tubes but my "turbo guys" feel the "mid's" will do a better job of keeping heat in the tubes. I'll continue to wrap the pipes all the way back to the turbo/s like I do now (though I have considered getting the "post header" pipes coated with a heavy ceramic instead???

Please chime-in on any or all of these questions. Naturally, the more facts/test results vs. opinions, the better...

Thanks for reading..

 

Looks like an awesome build. When you get the numbers you want I will copy it.

 

I was going to aim for 800rwhp plus with my 2v. But decided to leave that power for a pushrod fox. So 650rwhp tops for me now but my plans were

Teksid .20over
Manley H beam rods
Diamond pistons
Melling billet oil pump
TFS heads
custom bullett racing cams
Logan intake with accufab throttle body
cobra crank
80lbs injectors
Glenns Performance/Fore intank 340 pumps
and a Precision 8285mm CEA turbo


I wouldnt trust DSS pistons. I also would go with Manley over scat rods.

 

a 75mm tb will support everything that thing will make and more. I think MMR said they have made like 1200hp with a 75mm.

 

nice.!
sound about rite

btw
if the turbo was closer to the engine it would make more power rigt of the bat

insted spend the money on the jesel stuff why not put some c head and be done with it
oem c heads and cams will support 1000rwhp.
you can sell you 2 valve ported stuff and have plenty of money to get the 4 valve stuff

this combination had put some sick 4 valve drif cars out there and some land speed recors...
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LOL... thanks... when all my work is done, I'll get back to ya'...

Yeah, the Scat deal is a monetary thing. The season is coming fast and my funds need to be stretched as far as possible. I'll have a good look at them when I pull everything apart... I've not heard anything bad about the DSS product. I think they put a good amount of r&d into them?

Yes, I believe it will do that too... But I'm also trying to get things to spool-up quicker so that's why I'm considering going to twins...

Yes, that one of the advantages of going to twins, because they'll be smaller, I should be able to move them up in front of the rear axle (to your point: closer to the motor)
Again, to my point about the 4v heads, I fully understand their capabilities for flow/power but the weight will hurt me. All that mass of aluminum, 2-more cams, 16-more valves, springs, etc... The car's already too heavy in the front...


The Jesel stuff, I got for a very good price and I think they will help me raise my usable RPM levels a bit... We'll see...


fwiw, all the 4v drift cars are gone! The combinations didn't get the job done (power to weight) compared to the 400+cid engines that they all run now.
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They even tried having a Daytona Prototype 4v engine built but in N/A form, but it couldn't match the big-bore Pushrod motors... "Ain't no replacement for displacement" or "CASH",,, lol Of which I have a limited amount of, hence my puny-little mod-motor with turbo... hahaha...


$$$ is also a major consideration for me as I currently am 100% self-funded. Those 4V's that they were running were very expensive with the Blowers. The N/A engine they tried was WELL NORTH of $50,000 and I know (because I priced them) that the Roush-Yates engines that they run now (that I'll be competing against) run well over $40,000.


By all sensibility, I shouldn't be trying to do what I am but I want to compete at this high level, so I'm pulling at every resource I can to try and make it happen... Which is why I'm here asking for experienced guidance instead of just going into Roush-Yates and plopping down a big-o'l check....


Thanks for the continued feedback guys...

 

I wouldnt bugdet anything on an 850rwhp 2v. The 4v heads offset themselves with the addition power they yeild. The intake options are also better and you have a wider veriety too. I would have gone 4v if I didnt already have a 2v turbo kit custom made for my car. Like stated you can run stock 4v heads to 1000rwhp. You could buy and do the 4v swap less than TFS heads and cams and have money left over. But if your 100% against it I wont press it.
I havent heard a lot of good things about DSS but to each their own. I just think there is better out there.

Good luck with your build!

 

you want a sick 2 valve combo, we will help you out.!

but for those kinds of numberse, we need to push lots of air into that engine.

we will need to blend the right parts to get it done

hight comp short block on e 85 with TF heads and a good set of turbo cams

the right intake is going to take a big part in this combination with a set of Precision Turbos with billet wheels .........

 

Your thoughts are appreciated, I'm actually checking into something 4v weight-related and will make my final decision based on the info I come up with.
If you have any true data about the DSS product, please share. Again hard evidence is way more compelling than general opinion... Thanks...

Until the above information comes through and changes my mind, yes I'm sticking with the lighter-weight 2valve set-up.
I agree 100%, air quantity is going to be key.
As stated, my current motor is 10.25:1 running 110 Leaded VP Fuel. I run the VP because I can get it anywhere in the country and it's very consistent. I used to run pump-premium with Torco octane booster but the "premium" fuel you can get in Calif. is 2pts. lower than what we have here in NC and the "premium" in the North East has a different blend than does the gas in Texas. In other words, too many variable for us to deal with. I have no idea but my gut tells me that e85 sold through a retail gas station would have similar variables all around the country which is a concern for us since we go coast-to-coast for our events.

That being said, how high of compression are you recommending and then, how high of octane would it require to be safe?

The cams are going to be very important, I've had discussions with a few folks on this and as I've said, opinions on what I should run seem to be like "backsides", everybody's got one and they're all completely different...lol.. For a non-engine-builder-type, it's hard to know definitively, which numbers are best??? How do you know or do you just take your best guess (in all fairness all opinions that I've gathered are by qualified "industry" types) and try it it, fully knowing that you might have to change them again...??

The Intake, as I said in my opening post has me deep in thought. Want to get enough air in so the motor's happy on the top-end but don't want it to be so empty on the bottom-side that it takes forever to get there AND if I am around the bottom of the rev-range, I need it to have enough "meat" to get things going... Again more questions...

 

Talked to a guy personally that ran them and said they were junk. It wasnt the tune either. I havent had any personal experience but with what Ive heard that is why. Diamond, Manley, JE, CP...cant go wrong with them man.

 

This combo work for me many times
96/98 teksid block
cobra crank
JE pistons 10.1 and Manley rods with ARP 2000 rod bolts
Total seal rings <the expensive ones>
TF heads port and polish
MMR stage III turbo cams
Bullit intake port polish and extruhone< will help air distribution better, torque and spool time FOR YOUR APPLICATION only>I use one it & it works?
Accufab TB twin blade <help air distribution better to the cyl.>
custome twin kit with billet Precision Turbos
<the placement of the turbos will be the BIG factor on how this combo will works and less back pressure will help spool time>

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btw
weight distribution will be addres in another way

 

A set of twin s251 borgwarners with a couple spool valves should make a very nice tq/hp curve and u can get them both for 1200.00 bucks
That is my next setup im working on. The single s366 that i have tried gives me full 20psi at 3500rpm . Its rated at 800hp

 

Okay here is my issue with all this..... You're worried about weight yet you are going with twins..... When you could probably go with a 4v setup and run a decent size single and make more power and it will probably spool well and also have more intake options to allow you to get get into boost and such when you want...... If you think the extra piping and turbo weigh less than the 4v head compared to a 2v head id put money on you being wrong.

 

He's worried about weight up front , his turbo in rear mount and the twins would be in front of the axle so the weight of twins would not affect that.

 

IMOP

He got to spend the money on the right parts to be able to play with the big dogs.

This combo is proven to work and the recepi needs to be follow to the grain of salt in order for it to work right.

Were also trying to keep weight to the minimum so spool valves are dead weight if he gets the right turbos

 

Block, check
Kellogg 3.750 crank, check
Pistons- Sense I'm @ 10.25:1 on my current engine, I was thinking at least the same if not a touch higher?
Rods- The Scat rods already have ARP 2000 bolts
TF Heads- Who does the best porting work, Fox Lake?
Cams- Do you know the specs on them or are they listed on their website?
Bullit Intake is 35lbs, the TF copy is 36lbs and my current P-51 is 37lbs. Isn't there something lighter that will work (per my first post)?
You're thinking the oval twin-blade works better than the round-single? What cfm are they rated at?
Working on billet-wheel'd turbo's now. Haven't got the size nailed down yet though...
Both the hot & the cold sides of this system will have very few bends in them so flow should be very good.

Thanks, I'll look into them. Don't know what a spool valve is? Have to do some homework on that one...

Working on weight comparisons now but from what I remember, the 4v head is 20-30lbs more than a 2v head. Pretty sure 2) 4v heads and one big turbo will weight more than 2) 2v heads and two smaller turbos? But we'll see, still doing research...

Exactly

Yes, the "just right" combination will be crucial.

 

the intake is the big player on this combo<don't worry about the weight,it how it works for you application>Need to be OEM ford not the copy
you can go single but it's been prove that the division help ait distribution at low / mid rpm<right were you need it>
I use a local guy here,he do all our ProMod stuff
In the turbo kit the turbo needs to be place right of the header <in order to work right> not any joe turbo kit right here
I am not giving turbos specs out only by pm & if you are serius about it.

spool valves are for BIG turbos
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A spool valve is a band aid to a over sized turbine for the size of engine.