good evening,

so here I go again on another tubro build this time for second 65 mustang c code coupe ive owned. had originally bought a 1969 351w out of a mach 1 to swap in with an aod but when i bought the car i was able to get the original 3.3l running and it grew on me so built the drive train to all origional specs last year and just me being stuck in my ways i immediately wanted to see how far I could take the 200ci drive train with a performance build so here is a list of what I have done in upgrades this year all at once and getting close to reassembly...

CALLING ALL INLINE SIX GURU's with any experience running a custom ground camshaft with a blow thru turbo charger OR anyone with engine/cam software willing to help a fellow performance enthusis narrow down his cam shaft selection( I got about all the stats you can need just dont want to post it all....

here is the bread and butter of my setup along with a base line turbo cam reccommened for this motor and a cam designed by me so see if im going in the right direction with this camshaft.


so ive redone the whole drivetrain and tied up all the odds and ends finally over the last 4 months so upgraded this build with for my 3.3L (200ci block .040 over) block that will be blown through with turbo:

-upgraded to 4.1L large log head- upgraded to bigger stainless steel valves 1.75 and 1.50 exhaust-ported exhaust runners so should have even flow cfm on exhaust and intake which will flow well up to .50 lift and should both be 140 cfm up to that lift.
-Holley 1940 model large bore single barrel 1.75" stock flows 220cfm but has had PV and vaccum passages modified by Karb king so it will deliver the fuel and keep low end torque up over the popular 2 barrel holley direct mount.(just actually got a holley 2 barrel 2305 progressive 2 barrel(pretty rare) so ill start with the singe barrel and then get a adaptor for the 2v mechanical secondary holley after is modified for blow thru.
-custom fabricated turbo headed based off aftermarket cummins v12 Log style header. http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodge/1012dp_87_to_97_cummins_diesel_exhaust_header/photo_02.html
-garret T3 super 60 compressor and .48 a/r turbine
-0- decked block with -8 cc dished alloy pistons, head milled to 54cc chambers for Static CR of 8.65 with gasket
-fully built semi roller C4 3 speed automatic with oil case and pump mods to increase fluid pressure, wide v8 drums both machined for 5 on 5 clutch packs with wide asbestos and wide kevlar rear band with a 26 spline 1400 RPM stall converter and custom machined valve body by 40 veteran race transmission builder
-8 inch ford rear end off 67 fastback mustang with true trac differential and 3.73 gears

so with modified top end(bigger cylinder head with ported exhaust runners and pocket port on intake I should see even flow accross intake and exhaust especially with the turbo header over the stock log exhaust so its a Mild performace build with peak torque at 3300-3500 rpms and peak HP at 4500-4800 rpms.

So I want a radical street cam that has the effect of a tight lobe center for quick revs and my desired peak torque and horse power so need something around coming on around 1300 rpms with my stall and carries well up to 5000 possibly 5500.

I usually dont like a broad torque curve and opt toward tight lobe centers in the 108 range so I get the more bat out of hell effect with a motor that will climb to peak rpms and torque rather then a broad flat curve common with turbos and 112-116 lobe center and around 262ish up to a 274/274 112 degree lobe center is a pretty common turbo cam with these ford inline six engines that has been succefully used by others. that still has 50degrees of over lap which is relatively not a a lot compared to an all out race engine but this needs to be street able yet still want max performace off idle since i have a low 1400 stall so I thought i could do better and came up with this.

please lend me your thoughts and guidance on this camshaft for my 3.3L turbo to see if im going in the right direction.

Advance Ground on Cam: 3 Lobe separation: 113 |
| .050 VALVE TIMING |
| Inlet opens: 3 BTDC Closes: 43 ABDC .050 Duration: 227 |
| Exhaust Opens: 46 BBDC Closes: -6 ATDC .050 Duration: 220 |
| ADVERTISED VALVE TIMING |
| Inlet opens: 35 BTDC Closes: 75 ABDC ADV Duration: 289 |
| Exhaust Opens: 77 BBDC Closes: 25 ATDC ADV Duration: 282 |
| Inlet lobe lift at TDC on the over lap:.055

Valve lift Inlet: .5097 Inlet Rocker Ratio: 1.73 |
| Valve lift Exhaust: .5098 Exhaust Rocker Ratio: 1.73


so with my intake and exhaust mods i want to take advantage of the flow ill get at higher lift so this is getting into a mid to high performance duration with these specs which will give me the high rpm range i want. then i put a wide lobe separation on it at 113 to keep idle quality and vacuum up for the auto transmission and power brakes. then grind it with 3 degrees advance in the cam to bring down the power band into the low range torque im looking for which should spool quick and really keep back-pressure down in the mid to upper range due to the valve timing on intake and exhaust closing 2 degrees apart so I dont get any exhaust backpressure trying to sneak back into the intake valve.

now is it just me or does this sound like a baddd ass cam? your thoughts pleazzzzzz oh and im shooting for a conservative peak torque of 425-450 ft/lbs at 3300-3500 rpms and 260-280 HP at 4800 rpms but would be nice if it carried higher since its a 7 main cap block it'll handle it fine but again want off idle power where i can still launch it making power on the low rpm range of 1200 would be nice since its a 1400 stall

and thats all folks let me know if you need any other specs i assure you ive spent time calculating every aspect of this engine so should have the answer to any questions in hand.

 

Re: ..Who would dare to ask the "Dominatrix" that lifts your valves what her stats ar

anyone..anyone .. willing to run some cam software this weekend and ill forward all the flow data and variables. I just really want get an idea of what this will do because as we all know im sure I could talk to ten different cam companies that make this model and Im sure I would be recommended ten different cams

I had tried to keep this build a secret the last two years while under way just because its actually been far more expensive and time consuming along with the learning curve then all 8 of the vintage muscle car era v8s I have built with great success. so im well over 14k into the car and drive-train just in recipients for parts yet alone time tracking down all these goodies is actually harder then you would think then building a v8 with an abundance available parts new and used. so im in deep in time invested tracking down parts and researching the right combinations to use plus all the time of an experienced builder and fabricator doing the work so its hard to put a price on that but will be so worth actually getting this mustang back to life with the 3.3 to its full potential.

i've been building in the shadows of my home garage and with my experience and the abundance of great forums that help tremendously along the way with people who have done it out there and with people that see the capabilities and know that this is a great running bulletproof foundation of a block to run, can actually understand how doing it properly with all the right parts is a feat in itself because to do it my way its not picking up a junk yard engine and lets through some boost in it...........this is a well though out and planned preform-ace car build in every aspect from an inter-quit suspension,built rear end, semi roller built c4 aluminum bell housing rated at 800hp and a 6 cylinder turbo that will keep the car light with great tracking as well as an efficient 20+mpg with the proggessive two barrel holley 500cfm that is totally a grocery getter that will see many miles annually for years to come with disk brakes all around and on the weekends I do believe I will get it into a mid 12.5 to low 13 second quater mile drag strip time with ease especially since I have seen these engines run with 23lbs of boost and head of up into the high 29lb range from racers and they keep building power so it will love boost. so its really got the best of the best and have worked with the best people on all parts of the build. great attention to detail.

so im to the point where I want to hear what other people have to say about this build with any constructive feed back or even questions, comments, concerns. because its a 65 mustang whats not to like, and its actually got a lot of mods you dont see done by the typical enthusiast: fully adjustable autocross suspension with 4 inch drop front and back and sits low and wider wheelbase thats noticeable to tell its modified, forged 4403 chromolly steering by total control products so suspension wise alone theres quite a few different custom engineered and aftermarket parts from the norm with show quality engine bay, body and paint work.

(AGAIN THIS IS NOT A BUILD THREAD I NEED ADVICE ON CAMSHAFT SELECTION FROM TURBO GURUS) Ill update this thread on where to find my build thread once the car is completed in june just to make sure it doesn't blow up in my face and then i think id be in a better place to give info on the build once its done with tons of pictures and modifications to car and engine documented through out the build and soon to come videos carving canyons and the straight away pull.

 

Re: ..Who would dare to ask the "Dominatrix" that lifts your valves what her stats ar

CAN I PLEASE HAVE A MODERATOR MOVE THIS THREAD TO THE:

Advanced Tech Section

 

Re: 351w CAM selection?

THE TITLE SHOULD BE: TURBO CHARGED 3.3l 200ci cam selection. Help?

 

I would appreciate the trial for the cam software.

 

So Ken, I think you have this one handled.

Tom V.

 

This is a tough one, it's a one off pretty much so you're not going to have much to compare it to. You're looking at about 33 CI/cylinder, which is definitely towards the smaller side. The intake is crippled due to the intake design, and there's limited amount of port work you can do because of it as well.

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=772&sb=0

This is the "biggest" cam Comp sells for a 144-250 engine. It's [email protected] with a 110 LSA. It's still going to have what I would consider fairly minimum overlap, but the selection of off the shelf cams for this engine seems very limited. Crane has no off shelf grind and the one Isky has is small compared to this one and they all are at 110 LSA. This means you're probably stuck at the 110 LSA (the core dictates the LSA typically) even if you get a custom grind. If I was going to do an aggressive engine I'd probably start with narrowing the LSA in this case, just because the intake and exhaust tract are so restrictive you're not going to hurt it as bad with added overlap. Do you have any specs of the stock cam? That's something else I'd be curious to see.

It may be easier for you to have someone like Delta do a regrind of what you have now and get something (somewhat) closer to what you want. Not something I'd normally recommend but in your case it may be for the best. Another thought if you can find someone who sells em is to look at Crow Cams from Australia as inline sixes were a somewhat less marginalized form of engine than here in the states.

ED:

Howards actually has a few grinds that seem aggressive for this series of engines. I would check them out. They have a cam ground on a 108 LSA which means they can probably do a custom cam on that LSA for you as well. I would definitely pass on it as is because the ramp rate is lazy compared to the other 2 "hotter" cams. Which one after that is sort of tough, I'd run the bigger one for an engine that you have limited concerns of how it drives and are sure the valvetrain will work with it. .470 should be just about perfect for the rule of thumb valve lift*.85 should be around where head flow peaks out. This would let you grow into a larger turbo eventually (Consider something like a T3/T4 hybrid later down the road, or a small (O trim turbine) T4.) If you haven't done so yet I'd see how the turbo behaves on this engine before camming, unless you're building it up. You may be surprised.

http://howardscams.com/index.php/ford-6-cylinder/ford-straight-6-140-250-1963-1983

 

Nice call on the howard cams I had not heard of that company and thats a good call this is what I was looking for:280998-10 NA 275 275 221 221 .470 .470 110 106 Hyd. Hyd. 1
2000-5600 Nice idle, good low & mid range horsepower. Needs good exhaust. sounds right

that was really the only question I had about cam and you had my thoughts exactly like I mentioned: "If I was going to do an aggressive engine I'd probably start with narrowing the LSA in this case, just because the intake and exhaust tract are so restrictive you're not going to hurt it as bad with added overlap. Do you have any specs of the stock cam? That's something else I'd be curious to see."

stock specs are 252 duration, .372" lift intake open 28 close 48 exhaust open 76 close 0 and 28 degrees overlap with 112 lobe center is are the stock specs.

which is why I wanted to grind a higher duration so lets say the howard 275/275 110 lobe center with .470 lift gives the advertised 2000-5000 rpm with good idle plus add some rpms for the turbo its about what I want but just trying to really fine tune it because I know it will run fine with that but im trying to take it to the limit so comparing that to my first post with the reverse split pattern 289/282 113 degree lobe center with 3 degrees advance. Like you said Draconic its a poor head but it is a upgraded 4.1l head on a 3.3l block with valves and port work so it will flow well up to .500" lift which should be getting peak HP above 5000 rpms and the intake will be opened up for direct mount two barrel progressive holley 500cfm with annular boost model 2305 so wanted to keep the intake open longer since the exhaust isnt so bad especially with custom turbo header so those duration will give me the power band as well as good idle with the 113 lobe center but with the 3 degrees advance it will still have the effect of a tight lobe for a aggressive and quick revving engine and I believe overlap will not be any concern as these are not real aggressive cams we are talking about.

so how does something like that cam sound listed in the first post?

 

here is a turbo designed cam for this 3.3 but its solid I am set up for hydraulic so specs like this would work good but to take advantage of high lift durations and keep drivability and low end vaccum I was thinking is will be better will I tight lobe center like you said too which will reduce the rpm band. this cams advertises 3200 to 7000 rpm range so with a say 110 degree lobe center this would be about 500 rpms lower per 2 degrees and may then be a power band of 2200-6000. so with attention to valve opeing and closing events can how can we improve a cam design for this turbo application.

Product ID: CSC-278-SDP-14
278/272-114* Solid Cam - Turbo
Details

Adv Dur

@.050

Valve Lift

L/C

Range

278/272

228/222

.460/.448

114*
3200-7000

Im to the point were it would be better to work with some soft ware so I you can message me the registration code for the demo you gave me that would be great I want to input some numbers to get an idea of what my power band will really look like based off my flow data and cam specs.

 

im do not think that a really big cam for the lima engine is going to do anything but cripple torque, the intake is the limitation for power/rpm. some of these cams your are looking at are probably intended for the austrailian cross flow head that can bolt onto these engines

 

that's a good point ashford an initially when I first started reading up on turbo cams in general because this engine in the us has only been documented a handful of times with a turbo. I was looking at lower duration cams initially like 252/248 with 112 lobe center or even 264/264 108 to get the effects of a tight lobe I like and since this head has trouble on the intake with the log design manifold vaccuum will be fine but I just dont want too much duration with a tight lobe center because i think anything about 280/280 with anything less then 110 would be too much cam and kill the low end.

Im still in a between a rock and a hard spot for a decision and I think the only thing that will give me satisfaction will be some software simulation results as well this will probably take me 2-3 real world cams swaps till I find something that really drives like I want because I'm after a cam that has a little bit of everything like low end torque coming on at 1200rpms peaking near 3800, 5000 rpm is where hp peak a happens with this head but I want something capability to carry it higher in the 5500 rpms range would be minimum necessary as well I want more that bat out of hell quick rev feeling instead of that broad torque curve that can come with a wide lobe center.

Check out this one from classic inlines: dual pattern adv dur. 264/274 @.50 214/224 lift .441/.450 L/C 108 range 1400-5100 says exellent low to mid range which is where this head will peak with power. fair vacuum, lopey idle good economy use with mild stall.

That same cam with 110 lobe center has advertised power band of 1900-5600 so that comes on at 1900rpms which is to high to work with my low stall.

so that brought me to this model 264/264 L/C 108 range 1000-4700 or with 110 L/C power band is 1500-5200 so that is about right too along with the first choice with the dual pattern in this post.

so im thinking reverse split dual patter because the turbo would really help the exhaust which does have higher cfm ratings then intake so Im wanting a cam that will really make the intake work and get a bunch of air and fuel in there since it will be pressurized I think that will work great and help the effects of the poor intake manifold.


SO I will be trying the performance trends cam Analalyzer demo V3.8 this evening and post any worth wild findings or at least see if I came up with a camshaft to start with.

 

Your right I have been reading up over the last two years learning this engine specifically with the turbo build underway for the last year which i've put 14k into parts alone do 14,000 spread out over a year is a pretty solid dedication to a project. which was a big learning curve compared to the all v8 background designs I've been building over the last 9 years.

I have been looking at some of the Australian cam designs intended for the cossflow which I had the chance and ability to do from the get go. my choice was to build it up with good us parts and time on the upgraded 4.1L head, with port and runner work and bigger stainless steel valves so it will flow up to .500 lift increasing cfm nicely at all lifts below .5" so know ill be making power at a higher band with the 200 straight six's 3.126 inch stroke so this block is a 7 main capable of real high rpms whens tuned right and did not want to grind down the lifter valley considerably as well as then build up the side of the block so it could be machined wider for the AU falcon head and just keep a nice solid valve train with bolt on components.

the cross flow is great and have worked with austalian cleveland 351 heads that are the quench style boss 302 351 4 barrel race heads with smaller 351c us style ports. as well as worked with 351c 4v heads US which are the ultimate in early era ford performance racing engineering with intake runners you can almost fit your hand into that still work well at low rpms and with todays components make power up to 665+hp in the 8000 rpm range on a naturally aspirated 393 clevor killing 10 second 1/4 mile drag cars.

So with out using the cross flow on this inline six build I'm relying on the turbo working right and make boost when I want, in the power band I want. so I need an exhaust that will build low end pressure at 1400 rpms or less so that my compressor can make up for it and being that the intake is heavily modified which is not cheap to do on a US log your still into it $1000+ done right and thats if you cant do port work. so with a milled down intake that opens it up a lot. im going from a single barrel this came with at 210 cfm to a holley progressive single barrel that opens up the second venturi mechanically at a progressive rate so it is Very tun-able and will keep the low end torque but when the second opens thats 500cfm with annular boosters and a compressor thats pressurizing all fuel in the carburetor that is referenced from idle up to 23 pounds of boost with a modified 54cc combustion chamber and -8cc alloy dished piston and a -0- decked block in that boost range I assure you it will make up any asthmatic effects of the log head since it will all be pressurized dumping 23 pounds of misted fuel and air into a finely built combustion chamber.

so Ashford to a point your right being that peak power and peak horse power will be limited by the rpm range and flow capabilities which would put me in the peak power range im looking for, stated in the first post. Thats why i'm looking into Australian cam designs and basing off that so even with a big cam on the low end the single barrel is what is going to really keep low end flow velocity and torque then secondaries will really kick in and deliver on the top end with 7000+ rpm capability so the air and fuel and flow are there.

its just a matter of a custom cam that will do this. so from some of the basic cams listed and since most aftermarket options are truly Naturally aspirated design. going back to the first post I listed cam specs. now do you think a cam like that will work that has careful attention to valve opening and closing rates and degrees opening and closing specs with 289/282 113 lobe center to keep low end vacuum and then add 3 degrees of advance that is ground into the cam to lower the power band and get the effect of a 110 lobe center so it still runs aggressive.

what are your thoughts on how to make a cam shaft with specs based on that specifically for my application because if I just run some comp speced 2000-5000 the valve timing will kill my top end so im trying to get a real cam with truly minimal (25-40degrees) overlap on the top end so I get a perfect working valve train that will keep building power as the boost levels get high.

 

I am looking forward to seeing what cam you finally settle on.
I am building a '60 Falcon wagon with a turbo'd 250 I6 / AOD. I am just in the process of gathering all my engine details before a trip to the machine shop.

I would like to see your build up when you get it together

There are only a few of us crazy Ford I6 turbo guys around

 

I actually went with a isky custom grind and kept it lower duration then originally planned since I should be making power from 1100 rpms to about 5k possibly still pulling up to 5500rpms so I went wit a high lift mild short duration cam on a 112 lobe center which I was trying to go with a tight lobe center originally but since this will see a lot of street time I wanted a real smooth idle. so its a 262/256 on 112 with .450" intake lift and .420 exhaust lift should be making power from 1800-5000.

I was going to put a lot of cam in it but the more I thought about it the log head really only flows well up too a little over .400 lift so I tried to keep it with in limitations of the log head to make sure I'm making power on the low end and mid range. and from the stock cam its not much more duration at all just more lift and more modern grind and valve timing.

Itsunami getting pretty close to complete just mostly finishing cosmetics on the car but everything is on track to have it running this month. ill post a picture of the engine tomorrow!

 

I have been helping a Pontiac 4 cylinder guy with a similar displacement engine (200 cubic inches). He has installed a HP-76 Turbo on his engine and has run 25 psi thru the engine to date.

He will probably have some camshaft duration and lift numbers you could start with if you are trying to make a serious street deal.

Let me know.

Tom V.

 

so I've pretty much done everything possible to this engine to help performance gains if you will since this is a economy type design. stock for 1965 mustang is 120 hp and 190 pounds of torque so with a upgraded 4.1liter cylinder head and modified intake flow should go from 109cfm to 150cfm and stock exhaust flows 127cfm stock so I should be well over 150cfm and have pretty equal intake exhaust flow. I should be pushing easily 235-250+ horse power naturally aspirated. and similar engine dyno numbers are making power from 1100 rpms with a really strong torque curve from there in the range of 2800- up to 4000 rpms peak torque I've see wih the bigger 280-300 duration range. so in the same engine with a cam swap the torque curve went way lower to a 3000 rpms range. so I know that cam choice has a big play in this log head design.

so naturally aspirated my set up will have 250hp 250lbs of torque with peak horse power making at 5500rpms and torque about 3300 rpms peak.

so with boost say 15lbs on the street id hope to double those naturally aspirated numbers say 500hp at 5800rpms and 500lbs of torque at 3500 rpms would be about ideal. and taking it to 25psi will help deminish effects of the log since it will have plenty of fuel and with a big turbo I think 650lbs of torque is realistic with this fully forged set up and I know a racer from early Clifford six performance era that has done it with this engine and the copper head basket with no issues.

it will be still well over 120% volumetric efficiency in this engine so I've got the complete set up for it so I did keep it mild on cam selection but I have seen more modern turbo cam grinds that would be ideal.

so for this first cam I should be making great off idle torque maxing at 5500rpms since that is the range this cylinDer head was designed for. I went pretty mild on the stall converter at 1800rpms so this will be a good start so I can hopefully have the completed 65 mustang 3.3l turbo finished this month. and soon as possible down the road shell out the big bucks to an australian camshaft company because I have some specs from those and they are a much more advanced cam then offered in the US but at the price. so id like to see any recommendations now that I've really been able to research more data on what people are running in similar builds.

 

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you can see some pictures here of the antique holley progressive mechanical secondary 500cfm model 2305.
the block very clean after machine work and large log head with welded up base and machined mating surface.

I need to upload recent pics but short block is assembled and top end ready to go I'm just waiting to place a order for the arp head studs then drive train is complete. now just need to reassembled the whole car. at the end of the photobucket you can see the 1965 200ci all original but fully rebuild. I liked the disability and weight reduction on the front end compared to a v8 and power was good so that why I hope to be tripling power with these upgrades. and I like the fact similar turbo builds are getting 30mpg with this engine so that in a classic car is ideal for me. more to come and glad someone asked I almost forgot about this thread.