Hey Fellas,

I'm in the Noob Section because - Yea, I'm a Noob.

But, I'm not an idiot - and your advice will go to good use!


Warning you though, I'm long winded as hell. Be prepared to read details that may or may not matter at all.

Our 2.0ltr engine 86mm square bore/stroke - If you know the new EvoX 4B11T - It's basically my exact Hyundai engine with Direct Inection and slightly smaller turbo. It's an all aluminum block with a Uni-casted exhaust manifold into the turbine housing. Turbo used is TDO4HL 4S 19T. 11 blade turbine wheel and Inconel compressor wheel. This turbine housing is one of MHI's most efficient TDO4 setups from my research.

Compression ratio was raised by Hyundai to 9.5:1 as opposed to the 4B11T's 9.0:1 ratio used in the EvoX.

I am borrowing the TDO5 152G6 12T turbo from the stock EvoX as an upgraded turbo for my car. I choose the EvoX because of the similarities to my engine and also because it is VERY upgradable from the stock framed X turbo I can easily go into a GTX3071R or Forced Performance partnered with MHI and made the FP Green into an MHI K18 turbo which drops right into my stock framed EvoX positioned turbo upgrade.

I used a cast tubular 405 Stainless Steel equal length twin scroll turbo manifold from the EvoX and just modified the head flange to allow it to bolt up to my engine. Not the perfect answer as the elongated gasket matched porting on the manifold doesn't match up to my circular exhaust head port shape on my engine. Clearly my engine was not made to flow as much air and probably designed to spool the turbo faster than the EvoX design. But, I couldn't afford to have a custom made twin scroll exhaust manifold so I'll have to make due with what I've got here for the moment until I'm ready/able to replace it. I did consider just porting my head to match the EvoX ports but I want to see what I may be able to do with just making a custom head gasket and try to make it work.

We have a Bosch Direct Injection system controlled by what seems to be Seimens VDO PCM inside a Continental casing. The wire harness is Bosch as well. So it may indeed be Bosch internals inside the PCM. I just don't know for certain.

The engine is Torque Management based. Which means the PCM calculates torque and closes the electronic throttle body to manage torque output o the engine. The OEM internal waste gate is also electronic with a stepper motor that can control boost in any gear/rpm range and operates on voltage specs in it's rest position.

We have dual adjustable cams with Cam position sensors on either side.

And an auto transmission which I'm NOT fond of at all. All my money for this project once I get passed the turbo upgrade will be going towards getting rid of it and replacing it with a GM rear wheel drive manual setup. But that not happening this season. Certainly my goal right now is to just get the car over 315whp with a reliable sensible tune before I'm forced into the expense of building the block and stand-alone custom tune solutions.

Known issues:
#1 Tuning - Direct Injection PCM tuning hasn't really come too far on my platform. Although I am sponsored by the premier tuner, it may in fact be a base tune sold and re-sold and rebranded and sold again. Some items being altered on the dyno don't make the results you'd expect. So I don't know for sure what is tunable and what is NOT.
#2 Detonation - What lead me to this turbo upgrade is the fact that many engines have been lost AFTER obtaining a canned tune and doing full exhaust upgrades. I have traced this issue back to the cast UN-Equal length exhaust manifold. Cylinder #2 is always the first to fail. Cyl 3 is quickly the second in line. Because adding 3" high flow exhausts seem to lead to engine failure due to ground straps breaking off the spark plugs in cyl 2, I believe back pressure builds up in cyl 2, then 3 because they are both directly inline with the shortest runners to the turbine housing. The more pressure in the cylinders, the more fuel pressure is required to inject the same amount of fuel as compared to other cylinders. Our cars use a common fuel rail that is powered by a mechanical fuel pump that produces upwards of 2000psi of pressure via a cam lobe. 2 strokes per cam rotation and obviously the fuel injector is inside the cylinder. So as pressure in the cly builds in cyl 2 specifically, less fuel is injected because of the lower pressure differential.
#3 Carbon Deposits/Sludge - This is the obvious issue with Direct Injection. Add to it 17.4lbs of boost OEM (22psi tuned) and you have a high compression engine with stock internals which is bottle necked pretty good on the exhaust side of things. Although the OEM tried a special piston hat design which is supposed to cut down on blow-by we still get tons of buildup on the intake valves. I planned to delete the PCV valve completely and just vent both valve cover ports to the crankcase to atmosphere to avoid the valve deposits which negatively effect airflow equality and also cause detonation causing carbon buildup.


So the reason for my post.

Meth/Water 50/50 Injection is an idea that helps solve some of the known issues listed above. Staving detonation and cleaning the intake tract are all great benefits.

What I'm afraid of .........
#1 Fail Safe workability - With tuning being very non-specific and NO piggyback setups being available.....I'm not certain what system and failsafe combo I can get to work within a reasonable price range. AEM's progressive setup is the recommended setup by my tuning shop. However, no specifics as to what and how the failsafe will work. Most Meth Injection setups come prepared to work with piggy backs/Stand alone OR at the very least - an Open source tune that is much further along than what I have at my disposal.

#2 I don't quite have my head wrapped around how the Speed Density dual MAP setup will work with my turbo upgrade OR Water/Meth injection and how much the engine electronics may or may not be able to save itself in a failure situation.


I was hoping you guys would offer up some insight on what I'm missing and/or any good ideas to help me along in my quest for power on a platform that isn't very mod friendly. All but those requiring Lotto winning money because I have gotten this far on a very budget friendly purchase/borrowing spree.

 

Doesn't vacuum in the crankcase help blow by and carbon buildup? Vacuum pump?

Meth will allow you to add more timing, kinda like running race gas. KR (knock retard) in your tune should keep you safe. Just add a little at a time and scan your AFR, timing and any knock. Once you detect slight KR back the timing down slightly and you should be good. Make little changes when tuning and creep up on optimal afr and timing.

Your theory of losing the two cylinders with the most direct path sounds like a lean condition to me. I would run a wideband 02 in the cylinder you think is the leanest and check your tune that way. I have a hard time accepting that the injectors would be lean because of the added cylinder pressure. It could simply be that 2 cylinder are getting more air?

 

How do you control boost? and tell me more about the Dual MAP setup you mention at the end.

Most makers have a failsafe of some kind that can cut or give power to wires when something happens.

I would think that an Aquamist HFS-4 would be best, as it can more closely mimic your direct injection fuel signal, it has several kinds of failsafes, both internal, and externals well known in the evo and subie community.

 

Boost is controlled by a dc electric stepper motor which is controlled by PCM.

Like the newest Ford Ecoboost, there is a speed density setup where there is a MAP sensor pre-throttle body and another in the intake manifold which incorporates an IAT sensor. The computer uses these to determine actual air-flow volume into the engine. Then downstream we have 2x wideband O2 sensors which adjust short, long term fuel trims as well as monitoring CAT efficiency and EGT's.

We have figured out that cutting power to the bank1 MAP will cut boost because the PCM frees out

we're now loozing at bigger turbos and the newest Stage3 Snow DI Boost Cooler which references the common rail pressure to match 2D map for methanol injection.

So maybe that will provide added fueling to an extent

 

Maybe, a Kia Race team running this engine said it's due to coolant pump cavitation in higher rpms overheating the Cyl wall on the exhaust side of the water jacket. Eventually causing detonation and/or ringland failure.

Without any technical info from the tuning community we have, it's largely guesswork Lol.

I should just go get an EvoX and have the power and reliability anyone would want.

But the Sonata is such a good looking and rarely modded car with a GREAT engine to start fooling with.

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I want to suggest you look at the Aquamist HFS4. It will provide a more linear curve than Snow, and seems to be about the same price. It references fuel pressure and injector signal. The Subie and some Evo guys will cut power to the boost controller so that if there is a failure, the turbo will be a wastegate pressure. You could always cut power to the MAP and go boostless.

 

Thanks, couple are experimenting with different kits, so I suppose I'll get to see which works.

The LNF and Ecoboost DI pumps seem good to 400+ on pump gas.....we really shouldn't need methanol for fueling since we use the exact same pump.

Thanks for the advice, you may be correct if it has two refreshes to fueling. The AM rep told me that their algorithm may not work properly on our platform when I inquired last year...maybe they have new conversions now for the Focus ST etc that have similar DI fueling parts

 

I would like to see where you had this conversation. Was it an email conversation, or a board somewhere?

What are your injectors good to? I know the LNF guys use Opel GT injectors for E85. Also, how are the transmissions with the power you are discussing? I have thought about a Sonata, as my parents and a friend have one, but the whole no manual thing scares me if I want to do exhaust intake, meth and tune.

 

Pretty sure FB PM with Jeff@Howerton. I just went back and looked.....He said something to the effect that the controller board for the Cobalt SIDI should work, but it's never been tried with the application.

He was talking about the PCM pinouts working or not working for the Cobalt SIDI harness but that shouldn't be to much to figure out.

We have not figured out stock injector limits yet. The turbos just now being upgraded are 400whp capable....so we will see if fuel pressure starts to drop at that level.

We use Bosch injectors, but we don't know the max fueling capability is. The pump runs up to 2000psi.

The PWC Kia race car runs at 380whp for that series on 98oct fuel. The LNF maxes out at about 380whp on E85, so I can only assume they are the same or similar injectors and hpfp from bosch.

The Opel GT injectors give them a higher threshold than 380whp on E85?

The 6AT has held up pretty well, in Korea, they claim any torque above 350 to wheels is prone to failure. They make up to 450whp on a GTX3071R that's not maxed out. But, they also use an FIC and PFI to add fueling for the larger turbo.

The World Motor we have though, shares bolt Paterno with the Caliber SRT-4 so the getrag 6MT should actually be an option along with Kia Forte 5-6MT as swappable trans in fwd, but the Trans mount is 360* mountable as seen in the Gencoupe and Sky Redline etc.

Bolt-ons + Tune and WMI will get you a 13ET at 111mph with Torque managed 2.2sec 60ft. Since that record, tunes allow break boosting and with anything better than OE street tires, that's a high 12 ET with a factory turbo grocery getter

Go for it, maybe help me on long the way figure some things out lol

 

Any more news?

 

To update an OLD OLD thread. I installed a CM5-LT WMI controller with RPM and MAP referenced table. The output drives the pump for now and can increase decrease pump pressure in 16x16 3D map. It can also drive a secondary fuel pump + 2 injectors at 30hz via similar 3D tables.

Now, we'd like to get over pump gas and really focus on E85. Since we now know DI engines vary fuel volume on Rail Pressure + small variance in injector window 3-5ms max. The mechanical HPFP is regulated via PWM signal that opens the internal bypass valve when it receives power there by NOT increasing pressure in the rail. It also is said that if you disconnect the HPFP actuator it will default to max pressure lol. There's one way to do it.

In any case, I haven't fully given up on this project, but realized WMI needs to be direct port and needs a fast acting valve and still doesn't deliver accurate fueling due to pump resolution and pulsations. It's far better to just do port injection for fuel volume.

Check out Volvo's new DUAL HPFP DI 2.0TTT engine. They used 2 turbos, one for each scroll, and a supercharger on the front to pump out over 400hp at 30psi.

Driving the HPFP on something you can control RPM is probably the ticket to high revving engines.

Next product line may be 2 pump lobes on a single cam.

I'm just rambling on here. bottom line, I need a full stand-alone to NOT rely on tuners who are most concerned with protecting their hard part sales.

Update regarding this transmission - F24 isn't bad, but the TDO4HL 4S small turbine spools so fast and the tuners just shoot for external gated MAX boost / torque everywhere - that it's prematurely failed on cars that product 450-400tq @ 3300rpm. I tried to convince the tuners to utilize boost by gear like the Cortex EBC which uses wheel speed via can bus to trigger each gear and seperate maps for boost. This coupled with proper transmission tuning would probably allow a longer lifespan and or more output.

Hyundai needs to partner with a US based company to start bringing these motors to the drag strips and help provide feedback and promote a reputation for their cars. They are racing the i30N and have developed a racing program.