I've been doing some reading on water/meth/alcohol injection lately, and I'm interested...however, I don't want to HAVE to buy washer fluid and all all the time, and have to change my tune to match what concentration i was running etc...so I was thinking about pure water. Then doing some reading, it turns out meth tends to cool the IAT's better than water alone, which tends to just stabilize the combustion process. So I'm wondering, if I run like 20% meth, on my build(8 psi, pump gas, intercooled, daily driven) what kind of IAT drops can I see, and how much extra timing do you think I could get away with(21 at WOT now) also i believe from what ive read that around 20% meth wont affect my a/f ratio? Just wondering if it would be worthwhile.....

 

Even 100% water slows combustion and needs a little extra timing. You might as well pick a mixture and tune for it. I use -20 washer fluid, or in a pinch 1 part denatured alcohol and 2 parts distilled water.

 

When I started spraying -20 washer fluid my afr went from 11.7-11.8 to 11.0-11.1. It won't use it as quick as you think, a gallon will last a long time! Plus the -20 blend is only about $1.50 a gallon at wally world!

 

I tried all kinds of methanol/water mixtures, from 20% to 100% meth. normally saw about .25 decrease in afr for every 15-20% increase in meth. I was not watching iat's. Pretty much ran 30 total timing all year, no detonation no matter the mix. I'm going to stick with the washer fluid next year, no mixing. W/o any inj., my motor would just start to detonate at 30°. with 100% meth it would det at 34°. only 10 psi.

 

So basically if I ran straight washer fluid(-20) and my tune is dialed in at 11.5:1 now, it will actually go a little richer(around 11:1??, which would make the tune "safer", plus it'll cool down the IAT's and the combustion temps...and reduce detonation? lol. man, why haven't I dont this already. But seriously, I was thinking it would make me have to redo my MAF transfer function...but I guess not. I believe I will leave my boost where it is and start saving up for a meth inj kit. I like the idea of it being safer and allowing a little extra power(as long as i dont go crazy with the timing i understand)

 

I'm carbed, so don't know bout the maf stuff. I see ur intercooled, what makes u think meth is needed?

 

As far as usage goes. Depending on the size of the tank and the engine thats being supported. You can go quite a while on one tank before needing to refill it. For example, guys running 600 - 800 horsepower daily driven cars can go over 4 weeks before needing to refill our 3 gallon trunk mount. Of course driving habits and how often you get into boost is a huge factor. For many of us we really don't drive our cars everyday so even small 3 quart tanks can last over a week or two.

When it comes to mixtures. I really prefer our customers to run at least -20 windshield washer fluid when available. Even in states that do not get that cold. You can find the stuff in places like walmart, lows, home depot, ace hardware etc. So unless you're racing in a class that doesn't allow any methanol and your only choice is pure water. Run pure water. Other wise run something with at least a small percentage of methanol as it will work better form you.

Last. Jetting is hugely important. Below is a list of factors we have found to effect the jetting we select when setting up a customers system.

*Type engine - piston, rotary
*Type fuel - diesel, gasoline
*Level of horsepower
*Naturally aspirated, forced induction, nitrous
*When supercharged the type of supercharger- positive displacement, centrifugal plays a big factor
*When turbocharged do you have single, duals or compound systems
*Level of boost
*Intercooled or non-intercooled
*Location of the nozzles and how many - location is a big one!
*Type fluid is a huge factor -pure water, pure methanol or a mix
*Is it a progressive or non-progressive water injection system? With non-progressive systems the jetting is the only thing that determines how much is sprayed out the tip of the hose. So i make it exactly as it is needed. With progressive systems I will size the customers nozzle slightly bigger as he can now use then controller to dial it back. So the size of the nozzle doesn't have to be spot on. Knowing so I go bigger so it allows the customer to grow with these nozzles before having to change them.
*Also what is the customer trying trying to target? Maybe just cooler iats, lower egts, general increased performance, knock control to run lower grade fuel, etc are reasons for running different mixtures which in turns effects are jetting

This is why with each order I go over the customers applications, discuss type driving or racing hes doing and what it is he wants to achieve by running a system. Most of the time I will direct them where to place the nozzle, what type fluid to use and which system to go with and then select the jetting that is best for their application. We do not prepackage all the systems with the same size nozzles as do our competitors.

Jetting is so important and is the one thing many people will have wrong causing the system to now work as they expected. Again this is because our competitors will generally prepackage the systems all with the same size nozzles and ship them out to dealers (jegs, summit racing, warehouses, shops etc) where they understandably can't possibly know what the system is going to be installed on. It may be a 300 horsepower 4 cylinder turbo import to a 1000+ horsepower pro charged engine.

So they include two or three nozzles with each system to facilitate production and leave it up to the customer to see which works best for them. Users get frustrated. They work with what they have and they don't get the results they wanted or expected. Then water methanol injection gets good or bad reviews which is why you see and read so many different experiences and results online.

I just don't see any other way of doing it other then setting up each system specific to each customer. Hope this help explain. Let memknowmif you have any questions. If you have any questions feel free to post them or call me directly.

Rodney

 

-TurboPlymouth - I dont believe it's needed, but it can't hurt..more power at the same boost level just seems fun lol

-AIS- right now I'm just doing some research and all. I'll have to wait til I have a little extra money before I can look into buying a kit. But I'll be sure to get in touch(most of the helpful info about it has come from you on this site)

92quarterhorse- would you happen to have any numbers from before and after? Just kinda wondering since you have the most similar setup to me

 

Stop trying to tune with gasoline afr. You are not getting a true reading and are really just blindly looking at the air fuel ratio. If you want to really know what the ratio is you need to be tuning using lambda, especially when you're mixing fuels like gas and meth.

 

Anyone ever try the -40 blend stuff? Thats all that is available around here.

 

from what i've seen, that means it has a higher concentration of methanol. Idk how much, i think i found a chart online doing a google search once...

-blacksaleen- my AFR gauge sits in front of me, so it's easy just to read it, i don't have any meth so it's not a big deal imo now. But I'm not sure if I can even datalog straight lambda(im using the old EGR input to datalog AFR) I understand what lambda does though, and I understand why you prefer it...it's just as easily understandable or readily comparable for a lot of people i guess

 

it uses lambda to derive afr for fuels, so I'd imagine you would be able to datalog in lambda. Not sure what wb you have but some of the (aem) you can change to read lambda or afr for other fuels using the switches on the back of the gauge.

 

Sorry no numbers for you. I can tell you it cools the air a A LOT! Before the meth I could make a WOT third gear pull get out and touch the hat and it was burn your hand hot! Now it's barely warn to the touch.

 

Pretty cool. I always tell people if they have the opportunity to cautiously place their hand on the blower or piping and it should feel cool after a pull. Just and easy way to tell the water methanol fired off. Depending on your set up and jetting That piping should maybe be even cooler. It should feel almost cold.

Rodney