I've got to think out loud here (huh?) for a moment and ponder aloud the past two days. My thoughts will be a bit meandering, however I'll bring up a question (in bold) toward the bottom.

Monday: I took my car to a shop to have some work done now that I'm a big baller.... In reality, I don't have the proper equipment and was at the mercy of the butt-fuckers. When completed, I picked up my car and relished the fact that my AC system was working once again (at the tune of almost $230, with an oil change).

Tuesday: I wake up feeling like I'm king of the world (rarely happens. This is the start of my great day. The day is crowned early on by a memory I had spring out of nowhere: Hanging out at FFW a few years back with some board members, blowing shit up with some gigantic fire works when the power grid shut down, making the night sky and all around PITCH BLACK save our flash lights, camp fires and mortars being detonated while tucked inside trash cans. This is one of my "happy place" memories.... where it came from on Tuesday, I don't know, but I was having a really good day and I believe it all stemmed from this random thought that took me back.


Wednesday: Back to normal hum-drum work. Shits piling up, and I'm taking it on with some enthusiasm because I actually enjoy most of it. At lunch I run to get gas and a burger and find that the 90* day has made my car feel like it's actually 120*- no problem, I have air conditioning.

But I don't. I call the shop, explain the problem and drop the car off for an inspection that was covered under my previous bill of sale.

I receive a phone call, am explained that more work needs to be performed...blah blah blah. I decline and stew. I had just paid $231.48 (which was "discounted" mind you) to have my AC system diagnosed, repaired and an oil change. The prognosis? A schrader valve had gone bad, which was apparent since I had it previously diagnosed but figured "If they are going to diagnose it themselves again, I might as well pay for it just in case there are issues in the near future." The car is 12 years old after all...

When I receive the phone call regarding the additional parts and service, I'm informed of the issue as I'd suspected- it's leaking from the schrader again. I knew this already as I'd pulled the cap and watched it bubble in the port. This time, it's the line itself that is bad. Fuck that, I'll replace it myself and have ya'll refill it under the 90 day warranty.

I picked the car up, questioned a whole bunch of shit that I'll plan to use for ammunition tomorrow because I half-knowingly let them blow smoke up my ass so I could get home and verify the bullshit regarding the proper use of their vacuum machine, their manifolds and their diagnostic procedures.

As I'm reviewing the bill I was butt fucked for just in case there was something on there that was an obvious mistake, I realized they overcharged me for the oil change by adding an extra 1.2 quarts to the crank case (which I verified on the dip stick). Additionally, they undercharged the AC system, which has of course leaked out.

I know a thing or two about cars and how to work on them. I don't claim I know more than anyone, but I do know when shit fucks up or times are tough, it's easy for a shop to scape-goat a bigger repair that covers up a small blunder and generates further revenue. I called up my old man and had a venting discussion with him for an hour and a half while pounding crown royal (make sense now?) going over all of the details and faults of how it could possible that I will need to replace additional parts as opposed to a shop liability regarding an inferior job performed by an under educated mechanic. I'm not sure exactly what I'll decide to do at this time, however I feel returning to the shop tomorrow and speaking with them again and requesting their district managers contact info will to review their process is in order. I'm sure having 130% of my oil capacity is great for my engine, and it's documented and verifiable that the shop fucked up in at least that regard. Part of me wants to go crank on that little 1.6L hard enough to foam the oil and spin the 114k mile bearings, then lay it on the shop for dicking me out of two hundred bucks to replace a shrader valve an underfill the ac system. I wouldn't be any better of a person than they are, but it would bring some satisfaction.

One thing is for certain, I will never, EVER let ANY shop touch any of my cars once this problem is resolved.


So, I promised a question:


What is the probability that an AC leak, that is bubbling crap out from the schrader valve is actually due to a faulty hose rather than a faulty shrader valve?

I could see if there was contamination on the sealing surface that wasn't properly removed (such as old o-ring material), but that is installer error I'd say. At this time, the only way I could see the hose being bad is if it were metal surface of the hose was pitted in the sealing surface of the shrader valve.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that the wrong sized valve was installed.

 

Its possible that its the line, but I'd bet its the schraeder. They can be replaced w/o evacuating the system, should be a 2 minute repair and a couple bucks. Then make them charge it.

 

Schrader was already replaced and leaked out everything in the system. Took it back today and said WTF, and now they tell me it's the line, and it's leaking past the schrader out the port.

 

sounds like somebody stripped the threads.

 

That was my initial thought, like if they hadn't cleaned the port out at all, but they claim the valve is down snug. If they didn't use proper valve or cleaned the port at all, I could see it screwing the threads. If it's the right valve, and it's snug, it's can't be blamed on the threads unless a.) the threads were mangled (first time the valves have ever been out of the factory lines), b.) there is contamination on the sealing surface c.) the sealing surface is pitted in the line (which would be my responsibility). Remember, the threads are well above the o-ring and aren't responsible for any pressure retention, just the fastening of the valve in the line and maintaining the location of the seal:

http://www.infinitecycles.com/wp/uploads/media/2009/10/schrader-valve.gif




I'm not fucking with it or pulling the valve out to inspect until they refuse to do anything. I have a feeling they will pass the buck if there are other problems. I'm hesitant to put a new line in myself for the shear reason that they can void my "warranty" due to them not working on it.

 

I had a 2003 Chrysler Intrepid last year that had the same problem and couldn't get the valve to stop leaking no matter what I did and ended up changing the line. I think the Aluminum was corroded away at the valve seat. :noidea:

 

Hey I remember that shit.. that was a crazy weekend! I had my wifes AC serviced in her '02 mountaineer last summer and the same thing happened, they filled it and it worked great for a day or so. I could see this bright green shit leaking out of the shrader valve (freon). They sucked the freon out and put it back in and it sealed. They said there was probably dirt on the seating surface, they said it happens all the time but they usually catch it.

Jeremy

 

Tell them to charge it with some dye in it then to inspect it to see where it really is leaking.If they did this before to see that it was leaking after the shrader it shouldnt be a problem for them to show you where exactly the leak is,pending it is the hose.

 

roll the window down.

 

I know how a schrader valve works lol. If they stripped it and it seats at an angle it will not seal.

 

I'm not sure if I brought the story up to speed or not. Last fall I had the system diagnosed which was a pain in it's own regard. The previous shop filled the system with dye which leaked out all over the low pressure side from the schrader valve. You could see, it was all over the inside of the cap and on the line.

I didn't clean the line ever so I when it came time to repair the valve, I didn't forget which side was leaking. The current shop ran a second diagnostic ($49.95 to pump in more dye to produce the same results that already existed.) They then replaced both the low and high side despite that the high side never showing signs of leaking. More freon and $24 dollars later for dye, the system is shitting itself all over from the high side.

The high side is now leaking. It don't understand why a perfectly good part was fucked with. The high side is leaking from around the seal and bubbling inside the port, so it's not a due to the line being cracked somewhere, but because their isn't a good seal on between the new valve and line.

If the threads are screwed up, it's on them as these were factory original lines that had never had the schrader valves removed, with a cap to keep contaminants out.

 

1. if there was already dye in the system they really shouldn't have added more, if there's that much dye in there i would make sure next time you get the system filled have it flushed as well. if there is too much dye or oil in the system it will always be undercharged as the amount of oil and or dye takes up volume. 2. if all they did was replace a schrader valve that wasn't previously leaking with a new one then thats on them, it wasn't leaking when it came in then they should have left it alone. 3. i would try and have it charged again and mess with the valve a little, i've charged a car before and if you use cheap gauges sometimes the valve will stick and i will have to hit it dead center a couple of times with a pocket screwdriver to make it seat again. 4. there is the possibility the line is just fucked, there was oxidation or pitting between the seat on the line and the valve that didn't cause a previous problem but now that its disturbed its fucked. last ditch effort if you really don't wanna pay the money, pop the valve out put a LIGHT coat of jb weld on the threads and let her setup and let the threads seal the valve instead of the seat. (i'm 609 certified and don't do this to customers cars just givin you a last ditch effort, if it doesn't work the line has to be replaced anyway lol).

 

I had an old cherokee that had the same problem. I did'nt want to replace the line so on a whim I bought a new high side cap with an o-ring iinside the top of it put it on and it lastes at least 3 years before I sold it. Might work for you too.

 

It's some what settled. I went back in today and the manager came to talk with me at the counter. I asked if we could speak in his office as he had some customers.

We talked, I asked to review the bill. I brought up the once-not-leaking, now-leaking hose. I asked about the 3 shots of dye and why a flushing the system was never advised. More smoke and mirrors bullshit from someone that should stick to calling himself a parts swaper rather than a mechanic. I heard such lines as "We replace both valves because it's just like a wheel cylinder, if one is about to go, it's only time until the other one fails." I was a bit dumbfounded by this statement as he did present some validity, the necessity was still pretty far from the truth given the results of his performance. I was informed that all of the leak detection dye comes out with the 134a, so having three shots of dye would never require a flush.

I kept my cool while he grew more pissy, eventually purposing a full refund so we can just forget about the whole thing. I agreed since I really don't want them touching my car again if I can make a clean break and find a competent garage. Upon my acceptance came the greatest one liner of all time.

Again, I am not a professional mechanic, however I've been in the industry long enough to know the processes, the equipment, the time involved in a job, and have a great ability to trouble shoot a problem when it comes to the mechanical workings of a vehicle- especially my own. After talking to this fool long enough and explaining all of the reasons I was not satisfied, he had the audacity to climb up on his proverbial stump and ask in a very loud and sarcastic/angry voice "Do you really think you could do this job better than me?!" To which I hesitated for a second before introducing the fact I was not only was I over billed for the amount of oil my car requires, but the dip stick reflects it as well.

...oops...

 

Lol dye does not come out with r134a. Any fucktard thats ever flushed a system knows that. I cant believe he even had the balls to try and feed you that shit. Glad you stood up to him he sounds like he needs to chew on a fist.

 

Wow, that manager is a dumb ass... 50 bucks for dye and evac? Are you kidding? Thats rediculous.. If we dye something, we do it to make it easy on our selves, such as a slow leak we're having trouble with or whatever, the customer doesnt get charged for it.. Evac? We dont charge for that either, you put the pump on it and walk away, there is no labor involved, only a bit of electricity. With the stuff I work on, your talking about a 18 to 30 LBS system, it can take a hr for evac, sometimes over night, and it's done with a micron meter, not a compound gauge. We charge for parts, dry nitrogen, and labor, we dont consider dye parts, nor do we try to get away with charging for evac's ( although it seems like all shops do it anymore, and it's total bullshit if you ask me )...

I know a lot of guys that miss leaking valves, they pressure them up and never pull the gauges. As many times as the valves are a problem, you'd think they would be smart enough to yank the gauges and leak check the valves.. I'm not a automotive A/C tech ( although I do it for friends ), and thats obvious to me.


I can feel your pain on taking a vehicle to a shop, getting charged, then finding out you got fucked. Took my truck in to have the frontend checked, got charged 600 bucks, 4 days later I'm going down the highway and the frontend started shaking so bad I thought I was going to lose it. The fuckers never tightend up the turnbuckle on the outter tie rod end. Ate the threads on the shaft and the rod end.. Took it back in, and they had the balls to hand me a bill. I grabbed my keys and told them to shove the bill up their ass. Frontend work is something I rarely do myself, just because I cant do alignments. I'm going to change that here real soon..

 

Well we charge for evac and dye. The car gets pulled in and sucked down which ties up a rack that could otherwise be makin money so we have to charge labor. And the equipment to do all this work isnt cheap nor was the training to know how to use it properly. Problem with most people is they want their shit fixed for cheap or damn near free. Not the case in this situation as the shop obviously fucked up but as a tech at a small business we do get a bad rap. Of coursd alot of it is that educated techs inherently want to get payed more in which they move on to dealerships leaving small businesses to pick from whats left. Not always the case but. . . . . It is what it is

 

Should have told him yes.. your fired and I will be doing your job from now on .. lol

Dye isn't evaced with the refridgerant. If that was true then all the oil would be sucked from the system also. Sounds like the guy is tryin to bend ya over and give it to ya dry. The simple fact that they allowed the vehicle to leave without knowing there werent any leaks speaks volumes about their business. Before I let a car leave I always leave a set of gauges on the system for a good 20 mins with the system running. If the pressures drop you know you have a problem.
My money would go on the mechanic who installed the valve didnt lube the seal at all and probably ripped it.

 

I can certainly see why most shops charge for that. Dye costs money, it's not free. Evac takes time, and like you said, that equipment isnt cheap ( we go through pumps like crazy, most aren't made for the long run times ours need to run, eats them up ).. Most of our stuff is flat rate, so evac time is included in the labor, so I guess you could say that we do charge for it. It just drives me nuts when I see our dealerships charge the flat rate, then 90 bucks for evac ( I shit you not ).

Thats the thing with A/C work, it is NOT cheap. The parts are not cheap, the labor isnt either. I guess because you can buy 134 at a parts store and it takes them 10 mins to put a few cans in ( and really fuck up their systems ), they figure we can do it just as cheap.. A/C work done right, takes time and experience. Yeah I can spend 5 mins and have any system working, but not for very long. If you even think about half assing it, it will come back to bite you in the ass.

 

Exactly why I took it into a shop.