MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

Ok - so here is the rundown. Last night we finally got the C02 installed on Tbourns car and had a bunch of problems. Previously on the "small" spring the car would make about 18 psi and run in the 5.8x range with relative ease. With 2 turns in the wastegate it would make close to 20 psi and run 5.6x. We run a few small tire/ street tire classes locally and needed better boost control. So we added C02. Headache maker in a bottle.
We installed a switch to ground the yellow wire per the instructions and plumbed the MAP sensor inline to the wastegate per the " dual port wastegate" most instructions. When you just flip the toggle switch the solenoids pulse erratically for no reason. If you cycle the switch a couple of times the boost controller turns "off" and back on when you hit the brake and appears to regulate boost. We thought it was "figured out", so we go to make a pass. It runs over .5 second slower than it did with NO C02 on it. - This was with ~50psi on the top of the gate via the solenoids and no preload with the wastegate adjuster. I added 5 psi to all of the target boost settings and raised the 2 step to 3900 thinking that the controller was undershooting as described in the Innovate instructions. It picked up a tenth and 1 mph.w00t.
Next pass we adjusted the MSBC1 up to 34 psi,put two turns in the wastegate adjuster, and upped the C02 pressure to 70 psi. It responded with a 6.4x. w00t again.
I don't quite know what is going on - I don't see how it can make less boost than the spring pressure allows unless it either a) has a boost leak or b) is pumping C02 to the bottom of the wastegate.

Quite disturbing to say the least - when you've worked on the car all day and get home at 3:00 a.m. Any ideas?

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

Yea last night sucked . atleast you made it home by 3:00.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

leak at the before the gate. had the same problems on a throttle stop and couldn't find a leak. replaced redid the line worked fine from there

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

I see what you are saying but it should still make at least the low side of the wastegate spring and it doesn't even do that. I did notice that with the car off and the yellow wire grounded you can't push the w/g open, but when you turn the C02 off, the w/g can be pushed open. So it is doing something. With the car not running, during this test, you could hear a very small hiss from the wastegate like it was slightly leaking from around the adjuster screw. There is no way to seal it though. You could pull the hose from the top of the gate, pinch is shut, and the decrease solenoid would start pulsing. The more I think about it - it sounds like a boost leak under the dash - where the intercooler is mounted.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

i know my throttle stop wouldn't even activate with my leak. but you've got a leak somewhere. its the only way if the electrical checks out fine? maybe your backpressure is higher than your co2 pressure? making it work less effeciently than without co2? that could be whats happening? does that make sense? if its stalling out your turbine side from to much pressure on one side and not relieving it from the other it will fight itself. what are you doing to compensate the cold side of it? or is this on the cold side with a gate on it? some different thatn others. give us a run down on the whole set up your running in the pipes to make this work.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

I am sure the backpressure is pretty high - but not high enough to overcome the 70 psi of C02 and the wastegate spring. If it leaked every bit of C02 out of it, the wastegate should still make 18 psi - we know that for a fact. That is the main reason I keep saying boost leak. This C02 is on the wastegate only, not on the cold side at all. It uses just a regular Tial BOV.
The motor is a 400 cu .in windsor with a TV hybrid 88MM. 3" crossover, .96 a/r turbine etc. It has dynoed 1100 rwhp with no C02 controller.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

could it be pushing through the transmission/convertor at low/no speeds and not make the same load on it after its heated up the transmission fluid? a/w intercooler? any bubbles in there or pressure relief when opening it? you got a boost leak or a bad diaphram in the gate maybe? if you take off the co2 it goes right back the way it was? ill try to think about this one and see if i can comeup with a trouble shooting plan. any pics for me to study this setup and what could be a concern?

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

Not likely the trans - You can visibly see the car is waaaaay down on power. Yeah, it's air/water and no pressure escapes when you crack the lid.I doubt it's a diaphram problem since we can pump it full of C02 off of the car and not move the valve by hand - cut the c02 off and it moves easily. Somewhere on here there are a few pics of the buildup of the turbo kit. I'll see if I can search them out..

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

another thing you can try to find a leak. is put a shut off valve and watch the guage to see if it looses pressure. also you can really up the pressure and find the leak that can be causing this. also any visible/audible exhaust leaks? if your trying to to get more boost maybe pushing out the hot side besides the gate? cracked pipe in there maybe? its something simple im sure

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

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Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

Do you have a dual gauge regulator? If so you should be able to see a leak on the regulated pressure gauge. Are you using the launch boost-timer feature?

Check your ramp times and rates. Running 1/8 mile they become twice as important. If your ramp up rates on 1st and 2nd are way conservative the car will slow big time. Also the more pressure you run out of the CO2 the the harder it is for the controller to manage it. The solenoids work over time and hover either over or under the target number.HTH

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

We did that for the very first thing when the C02 was first installed. Opened the valve and immediately shut it. It sat for a few hours with no movement before the car was started. It has a small exhaust leak, but it has been there since the car has been running. No cracks in the pipes either
I talked to Tony (car owner) earlier and he was looking at it as we spoke - he found the lower wastegate line was blown off inside the car where it T's into the map sensor for the MSD and goes to the carb... which is really wierd - since this alone should cause the boost to shoot through the roof!

I've checked and rechecked the boost controller - we don't even use the ramps, just the timers.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

I don't understand the yellow wire to ground. I just use the CO2 to the top of the gate and manifold pressure to the bottom. With the CO2 pressure at 35psi. I can make 19 pounds of boost. If I want more boost I can turn up the CO2 pressure. Did you try it with the yellow wire unhooked?

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

Well with the yellow wire unhooked it just runs with vacuum/boost to the lower port of the wastegate. (in our case)

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

You are using a Innovative MSBC-1? I have my vacuum/boost to the bottom and CO2 to the top. That is all. I use the lightest spring I can in the wastegates and let the controller do the rest. I will read my instructions, I don't know what the yellow wire is supposed to do.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

Well it appears that there was a whole slew of things that went wrong that caused this problem. There was a leaking intake gasket. (towards the lifter valley). The boost line had a bad spot. The wastegate had a pinched spot in the diaphragm. One of the lines blew off of the MAP sensor(s)... All of these things caused the afformentioned problems but we don't know which one made the most difference. Now, at 4500 RPM's, on the brake it makes 15 psi or so.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

Glad you got it sorted out. Like Louie stated, turn the Co2 pressure on the regulator down to barely over the pressure you need for desired boost. It will help control the boost better.

I use 35# of Co2 pressure to make 30# of boost on my car so my regulator is set at 40#.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

I'll give those settings a shot. We should be doing some TNT Friday night at FFW here in Dallas. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

Wow! Sounds like you're on the right track now! FWIW I put CO2 on my car yesterday....

 

Re: MSBC1 & C02 problems - HELP!

We actually found the real problem - something is wrong with the return line (blow through carb) and it was seeing 28 psi fuel pressure with 9 psi boost

That is the REAL problem - I can't beleive I didn't think of it sooner. It had been running pretty rich at the top of the track. The fuel pressure at idle was high and didn't want to come down etc... dammit.