Has anyone tried blowing though an enderly bird catcher on alky, Big block chevy , maybe 40-50psi of boost and a magneto? Why wouldnt this work?

 

Someone did that on hot boat but wont be able to find it now.......... thanks hot boat!

40-50 psi.........WOW.

Travis

 

I know an expert you can call who tried to make it work with turbos.
Wally Stoss, Tuscon, Az. (520) 327-0498
He posted on Hotboat as "Heavy Hitter"
Real nice guy.

He's an engineer by trade, a turbo/EFI guru and was very helpful to me on tuning my setup.
He assembled his own turbo/EFI setup on an aluminum Hemi in a lake boat.

To get 40 - 50 psi you are going to need big ass turbos the size Mike Walters has and an aftermarket block.
It would be a 3000 hp frigging monster parts breaker.

 

Called him this morning and he said that it would work well but that it had a few issues to be worked out with nozzle placement and type, and that the same issue of having to tune for weather conditions were still there as with any mfi. Other than that its a great system. Well I like the idea and from what I see it wouldnt be any harder to tune than efi as I've seen plenty of these efi guys burning pistons and changing tune after every pass at the strip. From what I see , when you start to approach 2000plus hp the mfi takes over as injectors and setup costs of efi get out of hand and the mfi will handle just about all of the hp output that any block could stand. Just my .02

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It's probably safe to say that at WOT the A/F mixture is either right or it's not whether someone is using a carb, EFI, or MFI.

That being said the challenge comes to how are you going to tune any of those different fuel systems when you're dumping in that much fuel. I know the tuning window is a lot broader with Alky but it still seems like you would still want to optimize the A/F ratio.

From what I've seen none of the guys running MFI have any idea of what the mixture is and its all trial and error.
Most dump in so much fuel that it's coming out the pipes unburned. The oil dilutes and needs to be changed every other pass down the track.

Remember the Fair Warning TAH boat ?
I talked to the team owner several times through the years. Supertuner Kenny Duttweiler was their tuner and had wanted them to run EFI from the start. The rules would not let them run EFI so they had a one or a kind MFI system that pretty much never did run right.
The boat still set the MPH record for TAH but they never did get any consistency out of it and abandoned the whole thing eventually.
I saw it run many times. Once the boat crossed the start line the turbos hit so hard that the boat wanted to lift the sponson and get squirrley. It was real impressive. They pretty much had unlimited resources to work with and could not make it run consistent.

Again, with MFI how are you going to make precise tuning adjustments to make the A/F ratio right throughout the rpm ranges ?
It's just not possible.

#ad

 

I agree that most guys run to rich on WOT, but the fuel and flames coming out of the pipes are because the fuel burns slower and is still burning when expelled from the engine. Thats part of the reason alky makes more power, it burns longer down the stroke than gas does. Have you ever watched that video of infomaniacs boat cruising around and pulling a tube and still haulin ass with mfi, I know that he would have to have a primer system to get it started[ as you do to] but once he's running it seems to run pretty well. There are getting to be a bunch of these guys around here running hats and for the most part , once they get a handle on the tune, they dont seem to have a problem getting them to start,or cruise , or haul ass. The only problem I see them having is that they get greedy and want to much hp and I think most of them are toying with nitro. You know what happens then. One or two good passes and then BOOM. The way that the hp curve comes in with a turbo engine I think that the bottom end issues that the blower guys are seeing wouldnt be as bad. Mark, have you ever ran mfi on anything or had any experience with tuning one?

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I was all set to buy an Enderle bugcatcher from Good Vibrations Motorsports about 7 years ago but the owner Jim Maher talked me out of it. He said that for any lake boat use they just don't have the tunability for anything more than idle or WOT.

Since then I have watched the locals who try to run them as well as guys at the races and the conclusion for me is I'm just not impressed.
It's all trial and error and monkey see monkey do. How many threads on Hotboat were asking, "how do I tune this Enderle"
That technology (or lack of it) has remained unchanged since the 70's

In the same way that I have never ran MFI and my only experience is what I've seen others do.
I think it's the same way for you with EFI.
No question there's a learning curve but now that I have run it for several years I wouldn't have anything else.
This site is going to be the complete opposite of the Hotboat site in that EFI is all anyone is going to run and promote.

If the day ever comes that we can get together with the boats I am TOTALLY confident that I can change your mind about EFI and I know you have the resources and the knowledge to make it work right.

I went through this same scenario with Mike Walters several years ago. Once he experienced what the turbos and EFI could do, he was sold and onboard. He went with a Gentry small turbo / carb setup first and then graduated to the monster turbos and top of the line EFI setup he has now. Now his wife probably thinks I'm a bad influence.

Mike has yet to totally wring it out. He has been running a very conservative tune and low boost up to this point.
I'm more greedy and abusive in how I tune.

 

You dont have to try to convince me on how well efi works, I'm no dummy, I know it works and works well. I'm just saying that its not the only way to do it and from the start you've told me that it cant be done with mfi and I know enough about mfi that I know better. I'll agree that- NO its not something that you want in your everyday cruiser but thats not what I'm wanting to build. If it'll start easy, be able to cruise along at 40-60mph to the beach and then be tuned to run balls to the wall in a race and then 40-60mph back to the ramp, thats really all I need to do, Infomaniacs boat does it and I'm sure that I can learn to tune the mfi just as well. The only legitimate reason you wouldnt want one on a lake cruiser is because just touching the throttle gives a ton of cfm so its very touchy to movement of the throttle, I think that I can engineer a progressive throttle linkage that will control this-- 1st half of the throttle barely moves the throttle blades and the last half brings her full open. Other than that its just a matter of nozzle venting and tuning. I'll call enderly, hilborn, and a few others this week and let you know what they say, I'm sure that I wouldnt be the first to build one and they should have some examples of success storys for us. Talk to ya later.

 

Mark, if you'll go to hilborns website, they actually offer a mfi system for 8cy on alky and turbos. And as for how you would tune for mid range, this system has a boost sensor that restricts the return line from the pump to enrichen when it senses boost, it also has an ajustable valve on the boost line coming from the manifold to this restrictor so that the fuel curve can be ajusted. Look under turbocharged applications and click on 8cyl turbo kit. Theres even a diagram of the installation. Hilborn was used on turbocharged indy cars. heres the link www.hilborninjection.com

 

Bill Lutz runs an MFI system on his camaro, 522 BBC with a pair of gt47-88's on alcohol and it seems to work great for him!

Travis

 

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quote:

From what I've seen none of the guys running MFI have any idea of what the mixture is and its all trial and error.
Most dump in so much fuel that it's coming out the pipes unburned. The oil dilutes and needs to be changed every other pass down the track.
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hasse,
mate, a couple of things... don't comment on a fuel system if you know shit about it....
mfi does work, BUT it takes more work to sort it out...
lot of the high hp cars/boats i've seen run a combo of both efi and mfi
mfi can produce repeatable big numbers.
don enqiures @ hilbourn has been doing mfi with turbos since the 1970's , there is a web page with him and gene adams testing

back to the topic,
mfi through bird hat.... not ideal, but could work..
most ppl run a box style pluenum, and t/b between turbo and pluenum.
my cars runs 7.2 @ 191 mph
355 cubes, flat tappet cam, twin 61mm turbonetics
mfi, no nos, methanol fuel only

cheers
ash

 

I started this thread because I was thinking of building a big block chevy, twin turbo, mfi engine for my jet boat and imediatly I start getting several guys telling me that it cant be done for one reason or the other. Sounds like yours works pretty damn good. How does it start , idle and could it cruise for 5-15min. at a time in a jet boat? By the way that quote that you listed wasnt mine, that was Mark, lets see what he has to say in regards to how well your mfi works.

 

Hi Travis, were can I find some pics and info on Bills setup. I'd like to check it out. thanks

 

His website is www.lutzracing.com but I dont think its been updated since he switched to MFI.

Travis

 

No, Bill used to run a dominator, now he runs a custom EFI setup.

 

I know what I've seen at the lake and at the races.
I CALL THEM THE WAY I SEE THEM...........
I voiced my opinion, I don't want to bring any more negativity to Hass's thread.
Gday mate !!

 

haase:
starting:
as long as you stop the engine with the 3 way shut off, the engine will start when its hot / cold no worries.

idle:
idles great... adjusting the hex bar between the t/b and barrell valve richens or leans % leak down. Each engine "likes" its own setting.
Many people get it wrong, saying it needs 'X" setting...... wrong, find out what it wants, and where it is happy at, set it there.
get the t/b opening ( .010' or what ever it wants), and lean down % both correct, turbo engine will act like a n/a engine.

5-15 min :
this is where they may be trouble.
mfi , the way i see it, needs to be all on..( full noise,) or idle... They donot have good part throttle characteristics.
I spent ages, hand filing a barrell valve to try all sorts of different 'grooves' , to gain part throttle tunes.
basicly, idle or full noise...

cheers
ash

 

Yes he ran a c&s 1500 cfm aerosol that Roger built for him, he has MFI listed on his site and nothing about EFI unless he just recently made the switch?

Travis

 

Ash, just talked to a tech from Kinsler, do you run a boost sensor valve from hilborn on your return line to the tank? The tech says that this sensor valve senses manifold press. and adjusts the fuel press to the nozzles to provide the proper fuel curve the engine needs . there is also an A valve that controls just how much boost the sensor valve sees so that you can adjust the fuel curve. The tech said that what I would need is a bug catcher with one of the outside throttle bores blocked, which is easy to do as you just weld a small piece of aluminum inside the hat then the blade still looks operational, other than that its a pretty straight forward install. Idle and WOT should be easy to tune, cruise a/f ratio may have to be toyed with to get the fuel curve of this boost sensor set but once its right should be easy to tune.

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