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aftermarket computer, which one to go with?

Discussion in 'Ford Modular Forum' started by Jetmech, Oct 3, 2014.

Page 1 of 2

  1. Jetmech

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Ok guys I've been trying to price out different computers with harnesses and sensors and I'm shocked at the cost. I really want to go with a plug n play set up for my turbo terminator but not sure which system to go with. I really wanted to go Megasquirt 3 pro but they don't have the plug n play finished and don't know when it will be available. I've heard that the fast xfi and BS3 is the most expensive, and MS and Holley Dominator sys. is on the less expensive side. I just got a price of $3000 for the holley with all the harnesses, plug harness w/LS coil terminals, I can use all stock sensors except MAP, and wideband o2. It has pressure transducers for oil, fuel and WG, Also has it's own boost controller with solenoids. Sounds good but I didn't think it would be that much. How much did you guys spend on your whole system?
     
    Jetmech, Oct 3, 2014
    #1

  2. 92LX-5.8

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    - Unassembled MS 2 V3.0= $279
    - Jim Stim= $59
    - 10ft Harness= $79
    - Used all factory sensors= $0

    For a grand total of $417

    Anything plug and play will cost you top dollar $$$$ Even the MS3 PRO is $1000 plus and as you mentioned its not even plug and play yet. I imagine the price will only go up when and if it becomes plug and play.
     
    92LX-5.8, Oct 4, 2014
    #2

  3. 99TTGT

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    you can pick up a use F.A.S.T stand alone these day for around $800/$1000

    btw
    you can fab up you own dizzy setup

    valvSmall-1.jpg #ad


    4valvedizzyMediumSmall.jpg #ad


    2valveDizzyMedium.jpg #ad


    diz.jpg #ad
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2014
    99TTGT, Oct 4, 2014
    #3

  4. 1hcam

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2010
    My MS3 cost around $1100 for everything. Works great. If you're looking for something with all the harnesses and everything you're going to have to cough up the dough.
     
    1hcam, Oct 4, 2014
    #4

  5. 99TTGT

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    another option instead of the DIZZY setup
    you could use a EDIS module with coil pack's

    img319.jpg #ad


    Picture%20257%20(Small).jpg #ad
     
    99TTGT, Oct 4, 2014
    #5

  6. 92LX-5.8

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Why not just keep your factory ECU and use a handheld tuner. Your not going to be able to use your factory gauges in a terminator with an aftermarket ecu regaurdless of how plug and play it is.
     
    92LX-5.8, Oct 4, 2014
    #6

  7. 99TTGT

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    I agree the pcm will support over 1000rwhp.

    yes, you can.!
    mine works just fine..
     
    99TTGT, Oct 4, 2014
    #7

  8. TTF/Ken Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    What about the stock ECU isn't satisfactory for you for this setup? There are a ton of Terminators making big power with the stock PCM and custom tuning.
     
    TTF/Ken, Oct 4, 2014
    #8

  9. Jetmech

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    There's alot of reasons to change over, but a big one was I thought above 7000rpm was a no-no with oem computer? I also would like to be able to make changes at the track. I would need to pay someone everytime I take it to dyno tune it if I continue to use the SCT stuff. I also like the safe guards like cutting ignition for overboost or fuel pressure loss offered by the Holley and I'm not sure on the others. also If I stay with e85 I'm thinking anything over 1000hp on e85 and you start getting into drivability issues because of the injector size required.. I'm not 100% so correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm over 1000hp on e85 it should have at least 160lb injector correct? I'm just adding it up in my head and If I get a slot style MAF for blow-thru that's about $400 then a boost controller another $500. I'm at $900 and I still can't spin it past 7000rpm or data log? I'm just trying to spend it wisely, but belive me I know I will need to spend it to play.
     
    Jetmech, Oct 5, 2014
    #9

  10. TTF/Ken Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    You're thinking of a 24 Mhz PCM. The 03/04 Cobra uses a 27 Mhz PCM and is good to just under 8000 RPM. 2004 Mach PCM is slightly better. Is your setup exceeding that RPM? SCT Pro Racer, HP Tuners or other tuning software and you don't need to take it to a dyno, you tune yourself and can make changes at the track. Thinking out loud here.
     
    TTF/Ken, Oct 5, 2014
    #10

  11. 92LX-5.8

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Interesting, so a FAST system will run terminator gauges, ignition and fuel injection with no cutting or moving wires in any way, just a straight plug and play system?
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
    92LX-5.8, Oct 5, 2014
    #11

  12. 99TTGT

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007

    here's the quote of what I said,

    I run mine this way since 2000 with no issues & in 2003 I switched to a terminator gauge cluster & all the gauges work fine.
    Actually we have hooked a few like that at the shop also..

    btw
    Im gonna give you a hint ,"the fast box is not controlling the guage cluster in any way".

    There are others members in this board running similar setups.

    FF to -> 0.27



    5675679317_fd5b5ee4eb_b.jpg #ad
     
    99TTGT, Oct 5, 2014
    #12

  13. 92LX-5.8

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    I did not say you were wrong and I did not say it could not be done. IT can be done with a megasquirt/factory ecu combo and make it work. Its not magic. I just said it was not plug and play. The OP asked about plug and play so I was saying he can not unhook his ecu and directly plug another in and everything work as did before.

    To the OP; I think TTF KEN has the right idea above with using a software like HP tuners and still do your own tunning. good luck with what ever choice you make.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2014
    92LX-5.8, Oct 5, 2014
    #13

  14. TTF/Ken Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    I've always been the type that if a stock system will do the job, stick with it. There are many situations where you want to go with an aftermarket system but its worth checking into whenever it's an EEC-V or the newer PowerPC PCMs (2005+ Mustang, 2003+ Expedition, 2004+ F150) - especially with the Power PC there is very little they won't handle for most people.

    The tradeoff is you have to spend extra time learning your way around the software, Ford PCMs aren't self-tuning by a long shot, but there is a LOT of support on line for that these days. You ought to see the Ford support HP Tuners has come out with in the last year, they have stepped their game up (they've always been pretty good with GM), giving SCT some serious competition. I will say I am biased because I know the Ford software systems pretty well.
     
    TTF/Ken, Oct 5, 2014
    #14

  15. Jetmech

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Wow you guys got me thinking...I really didn't know the EEC-V could handle 8000 rpm. I am hoping to be around 1200hp, I will probably spin it to 7500 rpm for now. Ken, is there anyone on the forum that is making the hp I want to make using HP tuners or SCT pro racer software? Does either software allow for you to datalog with a laptop?
     
    Jetmech, Oct 7, 2014
    #15

  16. 99TTGT

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    back in the day when I own a Pro Racer package ,I could data log with it.

    some additional hardware may be needed to support 1200rwhp on e85...
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2014
    99TTGT, Oct 7, 2014
    #16

  17. Jetmech

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    .....as in?? I'm skeptical that the stock ecu can handle what I'm going to ask it to do so if anyone has the same doubts or can help me to understand please post up because I'm not familiar with tuning myself and how the Pro Racer package works or the HP tuners. I'm open minded on which direction to go but don't want to go blind.
     
    Jetmech, Oct 7, 2014
    #17

  18. TTF/Ken Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    You'll need a larger fuel pump (that's obvious, and regardless of which EFI system you use). Injector values for the injectors, SCT has that data for most injectors. You also need to set the stoichiometric value in the tune for E85 so it gets the A/F mixture right, everything else if pretty much the same as gas tuning except you can throw some more timing at it. You'll also need a MAF/MAF extender to get the range you'll want.

    With Ford PCMs fueling is based off Lambda. That's has some advantages. Say you're running gas, you set your stoich to 14.64 and the fuel table for example has .78 Lambda at wide open throttle (say for instance a 1.4 load) at 5000 RPM. .78 x 14.64 = 11.4192 air fuel ratio. Then you switch to E85, that tune would have the stoich set at 9.7. .78 x 9.7 = 7.566 air fuel ratio, right where you want to be.

    If you're running stock internals, you can't take that engine past 7000 rpms, not if you expect it to live long. If you have built it, the PCM will handle the RPMs you need. Here's a thread for reference, my friend and former business partner Eric Brooks, a well known tuner, former SCT employee and current HP Tuners employee:

    http://www.modularfords.com/threads/146636-Short-Stroke-Terminators/page2

    There are guys taking these to 8000 RPM, once you get up around that point you have to shut off some background timers in the tune, and then there are tricks to get it up to 9000 RPM but you'll have bigger worries than the PCM at that point, lol. Guys are doing higher hp tunes all the time with HP and SCT. Ken from Modular Depot (he sold it a few years ago AFAIK) was doing the kind of RPMs you want out of Cobra PCMs many years ago.
     
    TTF/Ken, Oct 7, 2014
    #18

  19. Jetmech

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2014
    Data log capability is awesome, I was worried it wasn't capable.

    I have the fuel system in place but what size injector can I go to with SCT or HP tuners without buying a low z injector driver? I already have a MAF extender(MAFia) so I'm good there. Ken, can I modify a tune with the SCT Pro Racer package if I already have a custom tune in my SCT handheld?
     
    Jetmech, Oct 8, 2014
    #19

  20. TTF/Ken Staff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    SCT designs their software to protect dealer's proprietary tunes as best they can. Therefore Pro Racer does not allow you to read the tune out of the PCM or hand-held to modify it. So with SCT you'd need to ask the dealer who did the tune for you to send you an MTF or MVF version of the tune.

    With HP Tuners, it actually reads the tune out of the PCM, rather than having every stock binary in a database the way SCT does. So with HP you would flash your PCM with your SCT tune your SCT dealer gave you. Then read it in with HP, then modify it to your liking.

    Edit, will get you injector data for your particular setup...and will follow up.
     
    TTF/Ken, Oct 9, 2014
    #20
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